TMJ (temporomandibular) disorder and teeth grinding
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@PrinceMyshkin I used to have a pretty major problem with TMJ. There were times that I couldn't open my mouth at all. I don't have any TMJ issues anymore. I thought that I could simply search for TMJ and "thiamine deficiency" but it didn't have much in the way of results. But there's this one: https://www.lewrockwell.com/2011/12/bill-sardi/do-you-have-beri-beri/
there's lots on TMJ and:
vitamin D deficiency, estrogen dominance, and magnesiumIn addition to taking high dose thiamine hcl, I also supplement with D and magnesium and progesterone (lowers estrogen).
However, searching for "Trigeminal neuralgia" and thiamine deficiency" was more productive:
https://www.objectivenutrients.com/insights/thiamine-ttfd-nerve-damage-trigeminal-neuralgia-hearing-loss/
Bingo. I knew it was the high dose thiamine that solved that TMJ problem for me.If thiamine deficiency is at play with your wife's pain, taking some thiamine should resolve the pain pretty quickly (here's hoping). The first time I took 300-350mg thiamine hcl with water only and 30 minutes away from food, all my pain from inflammation caused by lactic acidosis disappeared within 45 minutes. There's also a sublingual thiamine that is absorbed under the tongue that you might find of interest. There's a link to where to buy it and details on how to take it at the link.
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@PrinceMyshkin p.s. My teeth grinding stopped too.
I want to add that the inflammation and pain that I had that the thiamine resolved was not helped at all by aspirin.
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@PrinceMyshkin It's me again. I want provide more info about thiamine hcl re. the article at that link to the article I sent to you earlier.
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One reason for nerve damage in thiamine deficiency relates to a downregulation of transketolase, which is an enzyme involved in the pentose phosphate pathway. One function of this pathway is to provide reducing power for the regeneration of glutathione, the primary intracellular antioxidant. In thiamine deficiency, a lack of reduced glutathione renders nerve tissue susceptible to injury from oxidative onslaught.
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Please note that thiamine hcl improves the status of reduced glutathione whereas TTFD uses it to work so it would make the glutathione situation worse. So I suspect that you may have better results with thiamine hcl. I get the pure powder thiamine hcl from purebulk.com . Please note that thiamine hcl in high doses does get into the brain just fine, per Dr. Costantini. The article I linked to is hosted by a company that sells TTFD. -
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@mostlylurking Thanks for the reply, I think this is very interesting and could be the source of the issue. We used to eat weekly pork chops and more nuts and seeds and salads etc. before we started a more peat inspired diet. I’m wondering if the old diet, which was worse in a lot of ways, was more rich in thiamine. We also eat more fructose, coffee and sugar now so that could be exacerbating the problem. I ordered some thiamine hcl and will report back on any changes. Thanks again, I really appreciate this info.
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@PrinceMyshkin said in TMJ (temporomandibular) disorder and teeth grinding:
We used to eat weekly pork chops and more nuts and seeds and salads etc. before we started a more peat inspired diet. I’m wondering if the old diet, which was worse in a lot of ways, was more rich in thiamine. We also eat more fructose, coffee and sugar now so that could be exacerbating the problem. I ordered some thiamine hcl and will report back on any changes. Thanks again, I really appreciate this info.
Yeah, your changes in your diet have probably exacerbated the thiamine deficiency problem. It happened to me too. Sugar/carbs use up thiamine and coffee and black tea block its function. I remember Peat saying (somewhere) that if you eat more sugar/carbs than ____ you'll need to supplement some thiamine. My memory has recorded "more sugar than what's in 2 quarts of milk and a quart of orange juice" but that may not be correct.
I chose to keep drinking the milk and the OJ but I stopped the coffee and the gummies. I still eat oranges. And I supplement with high dose thiamine hcl.
Anyhow, having that TMJ problem points to needing more thiamine than what you can get just through your diet.
I found Elliot Overton's articles and videos helpful. He likes to recommend TTFD but I stuck with thiamine hcl because I do well on it and TTFD gave me a headache.
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@mostlylurking I’m pretty good about eating beef liver weekly but my wife is hit or miss on it so she’s probably missing out on more thiamine than I am. Need to make her weekly pate. I wish there was a source of quality pork that wasn’t prohibitively expensive. I do feel it’s a useful meat for nutrition if it’s not loaded with pufa.
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@PrinceMyshkin Although I actually like liver and I have it in the freezer, I haven't eaten any in months.
I've learned that, because of my toxin load, I need to supplement with some things in order to be healthy. My primary toxin that affects my health is mercury. I had eight amalgam fillings when I was a little kid. I don't have the fillings anymore, but I still have the mercury toxicity. Mercury causes high oxidative stress which eats up thiamine. Mercury also depletes selenium.
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@PrinceMyshkin Mewing helped my tmj alot
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@mostlylurking So we got some thiamine hcl and my wife started taking it. First dose was 200mg and the next day she already started feeling relief. She’s worked up to 400mg/day and it seems to have almost completely resolved the TMJ. It’s also helping with the teeth grinding and jaw clenching at night. Amazing. Thanks again for the advice.
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@PrinceMyshkin Thanks so much for letting me know! I'm so glad that she is already seeing some relief. Keep it up and watch for improvement in other symptoms.
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@PrinceMyshkin She may want to consider taking some magnesium also as it gets used in the process that thiamine is used in. I take magnesium glycinate that I get from bulksupplements.com.
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Just wanted to add my experience. Have been taking high dose B1 for TMJ on my right side and some associated muscle/nerve issues with my right eye and it's been working. Still have some jaw popping every once in a while (I think due to poor sleep posture, which aggravates the mechanical aspect of TMJ), but I can now go long periods of the day where I don't notice my jaw or my right eyelid struggling to stay open.
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@cookielemons dose and type of b1?
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@sunsunsun HCl, 1g twice a day. Will titrate down soon.
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@cookielemons Did thiamine help with pain only or did it also reduce the actual clicking/popping?
I have consistent jaw clicking and popping, but no pain (fortunately). I'm curious whether thiamine would potentially be of benefit to reduce my clicking and popping.
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@jjk_learning Yeah, it definitely helps calm down the jaw clicking. I'm not really in pain either. It's just that my jaw won't open and close smoothly and evenly on both sides. And it seems to be related to my eye issue, which has ironically been giving me trouble again this week.
The issue with TMJ is also mechanical, meaning that the jaw is misaligned in some way. B1 won't do anything for that, I don't think, if it's serious enough. You'd need to do mewing or some kinds of consistent stretching.
Another thing I've determined that makes it worse is caffeine and high histamine foods. Try removing caffeine and histamine liberators and mast cell activators.
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One more thing. High dose K2 may exacerbate TMJ. There's at least one user on the old forum who reported TMJ symptoms after high dose K2.
K2 is known to fuel jaw growth and widen the face. So if this is happening faster than your bones and tendons can adapt, you'll likely get TMJ.
Edit: I'm also wondering about the high dose D3. Grok seems to think it, and not the K, is what's aggravating my eye and TMJ.
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I had no idea about TTFD. Thanks for the tip to use the HCL version. Maybe that's why I did not notice any benefit from TTFD.
