BIOHACKING by Nathan Hatch, "F*** Portion Control"
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@S-Holmes said in BIOHACKING by Nathan Hatch, "F*** Portion Control":
@Amazoniac TBH, I don't really care (that much) HOW something works...only whether or not it DOES work. I've only just started the protocols so less than a week in and so far, following his suggestions, I have stubborn skin lesions on my arms (I've had for years) clearing up. As per his suggestions, I'm using silicic acid, sodium acetate, sodium citrate, having tannin and beta carotene with every meal, and eating more fruits and vegetables. I'm excited to get to the chapter on bread. I mostly make my own but I know preparation of grains is important and I've neglected that for too long.
@S-Holmes said in BIOHACKING by Nathan Hatch, "F*** Portion Control":
@S-Holmes I should also add that my energy levels and overall sense of well being have improved considerably.
We might as well argue that some people experience similar improvements in restricting poison A and find relief from an exclusion protocol, but does this give the protocolist a free pass to be sloppy and spread confusion?
Authors such as Sate and Garrett are at the root of distorted ideas that plague alternative health circles and sidetrack people from getting to the crux of issues with clarity.
We are witnessing the consequences in real time of what this type of personality can do to communities when they take the lead and find advocates who behave in hypocritical manner to promote their madness, only going by own immediate experiences and not minding the rest.
We had three separate threads on the Garrey Pith Forum dedicated to Sate's hyperphosphatemia cure. Sensationalism sells.
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@Amazoniac Speaking only for myself here...but I would be all for an open forum discussion about "poison A" with normal rational thinking people. It's still a position I profoundly disagree with obviously, but their theories on vitamin A is not what I find cringy. It's this weird religious cult they wrap all this shit up into. And the otherwise authoritarian censorship the ensues when someone isn't drinking that flavor koolaid. I'm also not thrilled about the forum adopting this premium payment thing, but that can take a backseat to the more glaring issues for now.
I don't think Hatch is right either, but in the grand scheme of things he much more rational in that his ideas are on the open market, free to accept or deny with no herd mentality or cult-like personas shoving it down people's throats. But yes, people should be VERY careful about incorporating his ideas, lol.
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@S-Holmes
Have regularly incorporated baking soda via Nate and other forum member's ideas, starting nearly two years ago. Had only briefly experimented prior to that.Baking soda goes into my weekly homemade fruit punch jug which contains orange, lemon, apple, grape, water. Other additions are 1/8 tsp mag sulfate, 1000mg Quali-C, 10mg Boron and usually 500mg Taurine. I'll only drink 4-6oz's at a time. I empty the leftover over on Saturday then replenish on Monday which allows for a 36-48 hour break. It gives an unmistakeable calm energy that has never wore off.
Have done sodium acetate protocols several times for approx a week or so. For me it seems to have killed the occasional alcohol craving i would get in social settings, restaraunts etc. The effect is pronounced enough where i have to willfully raise a cup to my lips. But mind over matter can be strong so we'll allow for the psychosomatic. The effect still hasn't wore off either btw.
Will also put a pinch of baking soda into any coffee that has that slightly acidic bite, which is fairly often for me.
Agreed with Amazoniac about folks who speak in absolutes and don't insert enough cautionary language. We have to be very careful with everyone's advice and protocols. Side effects can take weeks, even months, to manifest themselves and less aware folks may have trouble backtracking to the cause.
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@Mulloch94 said in BIOHACKING by Nathan Hatch, "F*** Portion Control":
@Amazoniac Speaking only for myself here...but I would be all for an open forum discussion about "poison A" with normal rational thinking people. It's still a position I profoundly disagree with obviously, but their theories on vitamin A is not what I find cringy. It's this weird religious cult they wrap all this shit up into. And the otherwise authoritarian censorship the ensues when someone isn't drinking that flavor koolaid. I'm also not thrilled about the forum adopting this premium payment thing, but that can take a backseat to the more glaring issues for now.
I don't think Hatch is right either, but in the grand scheme of things he much more rational in that his ideas are on the open market, free to accept or deny with no herd mentality or cult-like personas shoving it down people's throats. But yes, people should be VERY careful about incorporating his ideas, lol.
Sate and Garrett are similarly immoderate and pushy. It's not my intention to sort charlatans here, rank us as you prefer, but it's difficult to discriminate which of us is worse.
@S-Holmes said in BIOHACKING by Nathan Hatch, "F*** Portion Control":
@Amazoniac LOL. We (husband and I) tried the "poison A" restriction about 5 years ago. We were happy to leave that one behind. No improvements were noted.
The point is that improvements on any protocol don't found them.
@S-Holmes said in BIOHACKING by Nathan Hatch, "F*** Portion Control":
@Amazoniac I would actually like to hear from more people who have tried some of the things Nathan recommends and whether they did or did not see improvement on them. So far, I'm seeing some good results and not restricting any food groups, just finding healthier ways to combine and prepare food. As a LONG TIME Dr. Peat follower (I bought all of his books and subscribed to his newsletter back in the day) Nathan seems to be providing the things I need to go to the next level. AND he still uses Dr. Peat's guidelines, and more importantly, gives Dr. Peat credit for saving his life. (He and I have a lot in common.)
I get it if you don't like him. He and I are light years apart politically and maybe even religiously, but I take what I can use and leave the rest. I hope others will give his work a chance. What is there to lose...seriously?
I'm interested in knowing what's working as well, which is why it seemed sound to not dismiss the experiences of people who reported improvements from restricting poison A.
What bothers is the serial misinterpretations communicated as official declarations, but you already mentioned to not care about this aspect. Not sure where to go from here.
Giving credit is an obligation and Sate is not exemplary at it. Forgetting on occasion can happen, but how do you explain the extensive list of claims in his writings and the near-absent attributions? It's all BS, that is, butt-sourced? As for Ray, let's not discard the possibility that there can be more to mentioning him than gratitude, it can be in part for the community appeal.
If I'm not mistaken, you're dealing with a coach that advised an overweight person to ingest a stick of butter a day, who later complained of problems.
Nonetheless, the borrowing of experiments is not the central issue, it's the attached explanations, that deserve to be approached with suspicion and verified.
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@S-Holmes said in BIOHACKING by Nathan Hatch, "F*** Portion Control":
@Mulloch94 Could you be more specific as to what I should watch out for? I'm eating a variety of very nourishing foods, and taking fewer supplements. Is it the sodium acetate? Sodium citrate? Tannins? I'm still reading so maybe I havent reached the danger zone yet.
Go to RPF and read the log on that "Cirion" person. He was a acolyte to Hatch's ideas. Dude had a terrible time, weight kept yo-yoing and gradually kept creeping up. Clearly he was being candid and trying to find a solution to his problems, one of the more clearly detailed logs on the forum IIRC. But it didn't sound like it was working for him, whenever he tried to defy the CICO principle bad things started happening. He ended up becoming an inactive member, I don't know if he left on his own or was banned.
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@Amazoniac said in BIOHACKING by Nathan Hatch, "F*** Portion Control":
Sate and Garrett are similarly immoderate and pushy. It's not my intention to sort charlatans here, rank us as you prefer, but it's difficult to discriminate which of us is worse.
That's fair, I didn't mean to imply Hatch should be softly scrutinized by comparison to others. In my opinion what makes him less dangerous is his ideas are, quite frankly, less popular with people. Charlatans become more dangerous when they start gaining a following.
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@S-Holmes Funny that he was "gaining weight rapidly" and admitted to overeating, but was angry at Ray Peat for giving him advice he deemed as irresponsible. Was it though? Or was it adivce he simply didn't want to hear?
I remembered he fired a coach he had because he gained like 10lbs in one week. Also I don't want to call him a liar, but losing weight on 6-9,000 calories? You can't nonchalantly make a statement like that when you were talking about rapidly gaining weight a few paragraphs earlier. Which is it? And is your intake 6,000 or 9,000?
There's a substantial discrepancy there. If he got obese on 9,000 calories then I guess he would lose some weight if he dropped it to 6,000 calories. And either way, he should've posted before/after pics when making bold statements like that (I would also be curious to know how much money this guy was spending on food, lol. Doesn't seem economically viable to me.).
No one needs 6,000 calories a day to lose weight. That's not a sign of an efficient metabolism. Efficient metabolism is when someone can eat normal amounts of food and have enough stored glycogen to last them for several hours between meals. When you can go 6, 8, 12, or even upwards of 24 hours without completely dipping into the cortisol driven beta-oxidation then you've got a good metabolism.
The under-eating type of "hypothyroidism" is actually transient, and will go away when you start eating more. It's not the main cause of hypothyroidism. It's not even really hypothyroidism at all. It's your metabolic rate realizing a substantial drop in caloric consumption so it slows everything down so you don't starve to death so quickly. Ray said that was why those hypothyroid women (he discussed in the interview) could eat like 700 calories and still not lose weight. You need to fix your thyroid before you do any extreme caloric reduction.
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@S-Holmes Well I don't believed I used the word unsuccessful, sorry if I made you insinuate that. I guess success needs to be put in relative terms to the goals at hand. All I was trying to get across is this dude applied the lack of portion control principle, said a big "F#$%k you" to CICO and the law of thermodynamics, and proceeded to swell up like a balloon. He did cite Nathan in numerous places, so he made it obvious he was greatly influenced by him. To what degree he applied those principles beyond a general lack of portion control is something I don't know. But you see this trend on several less established log entries on that forum over the years. People disregarding CICO, believe they need to eat more and more foods, then start complaining about weight gain. I don't know what degree Nathan's influence is personally responsible for this held belief, but undoubtedly it's influenced some of them. He was a presence on that forum for a stent of time.
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@Mulloch94 said in BIOHACKING by Nathan Hatch, "F*** Portion Control":
@S-Holmes Well I don't believed I used the word unsuccessful, sorry if I made you insinuate that. I guess success needs to be put in relative terms to the goals at hand. All I was trying to get across is this dude applied the lack of portion control principle, said a big "F#$%k you" to CICO and the law of thermodynamics, and proceeded to swell up like a balloon. He did cite Nathan in numerous places, so he made it obvious he was greatly influenced by him. To what degree he applied those principles beyond a general lack of portion control is something I don't know. But you see this trend on several less established log entries on that forum over the years. People disregarding CICO, believe they need to eat more and more foods, then start complaining about weight gain. I don't know what degree Nathan's influence is personally responsible for this held belief, but undoubtedly it's influenced some of them. He was a presence on that forum for a stent of time.
I'm having issues accessing the forum lately, but found this example right on the first page of results in the searchable archive:
"I think Nathan Hatch makes some outlandish claims. He claims to have sat around all day at a computer while eating his high everything diet and all he did was gain muscle and lose fat. I call bull**** on this. I tried doing things his way for about 6 months several years ago and all I did was get fat and my fasting blood sugar went into the pre-diabetic range. I think his claims are ridiculous. My diet now is similar in some ways, but much lower in fat and protein. I'm at about 70 g of protein, as much sugar as I want, a little starch, and 80ish grams of fat. I have eaten this way for over a year now and have lost about 10 pounds rather than gaining weight and my metabolism has kicked it up a notch or two. I feel much younger and healthier than I have in 15 years. I did not feel this way at all trying Hatch's way of just eating everything ad libitum."
@Mulloch94 said in BIOHACKING by Nathan Hatch, "F*** Portion Control":
@Amazoniac said in BIOHACKING by Nathan Hatch, "F*** Portion Control":
Sate and Garrett are similarly immoderate and pushy. It's not my intention to sort charlatans here, rank us as you prefer, but it's difficult to discriminate which of us is worse.
That's fair, I didn't mean to imply Hatch should be softly scrutinized by comparison to others. In my opinion what makes him less dangerous is his ideas are, quite frankly, less popular with people. Charlatans become more dangerous when they start gaining a following.
I agree.
If anyone is looking for assistance, Mike Fave offers the same type of service. He's also familiar with Ray's work, but is competent, careful as a health communicator, and doesn't treat the audience as fools.
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I support Amazoniac's criticism of Hatch's (or anyone's) exaggerated claims, which, as Amazonic pointed out, reveals Hatch's less-than-competent knowledge about underlying mechanisms regarding the multiple ways in which glucose oxidation and cellular respiration may become deranged. The writers I would trust the most would emulate Ray, acknowledging gaps in his/our knowledge about multiple mechanisms relevant to bioenergetics, etc. I also support S.Holmes's interest in self experimentation and openness to learning from writers whose style isn't necessarily our most preferred (emulating Ray). I see no conflict between these two positions of (i) holding Hatch and others to high critical standards while (ii) being open to benefiting from advice they have given that might work for some of us (depending, of course, on context) even though Hatch’s understanding of cellular respiration is obviously incomplete. Even those like S.Holmes who say they don’t care about understanding the underlying mechanism correctly will benefit from much higher-quality insights/coaching/advice generated from those of us who are interested. It’s reasonable to learn empirically (by induction or, in Hatch’s case, even by incorrectly understood theory) that something “works” without understanding the mechanism explaining why the advice has worked. My main point is that we are joint stakeholders (disliking Blackrock’s use of the word): (i) those who want to understand mechanisms, critiquing and vetting Hatch and others and (ii) those who just want to know where to find high-quality advice or even speculative hypotheses that could prompt useful self experimentation. The vetting and critiques by the Amnizoniacs of the world exert adaptive pressure that should improve the performance of and our curation of advice givers. This includes all of us posting on this board, generating potentially useful speculative hypotheses for us to consider experimenting on ourselves with. I am hoping that both rigorous vetting/critiquing and clear/honest reporting from self-experimentation flourish and multiply on this board.
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@S-Holmes I wasn't quoting him. Dude just had a hard time with weight control while he was doing his high calorie experiment. I can go back and find the post where he talked about gaining 10 pounds in one week, which ultimately led to him firing his coach. Might take me a while though because this was 3 years ago, I don't remember the exact thread he posted that on. I think it was the one titled "Journey to Optimal Health" or something like that.
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@Amazoniac I think some people are having a hard time accessing the forum because Charlie is attempting to block VPN and Tor ip addresses, lol. But you can change servers and be viewing the site again without issue. Charlie doesn't realize we can bypass authoritarian censorship.
I've never understood why someone would want to try that "ad libitum" approach unless they're like anorexic and trying to gain weight. High carb, low fat, low protein results in weight loss because people are generally unaware just how many calories they've cut out. It's the lazy man's approach to calorie counting basically. Same thing with low carbers. All they realize is they've cut out 300 grams of sugar, they don't really consider the fact that's a 1,200 calorie reduction.
It ignores some of the more basic rudimentary principles about how adipose tissue is created in the first place. Fat is stored as such, eat too much you'll get fat. Glucose is burned and stored as glycogen until it's full, then it gets stored as fat. Protein will be used for repair and any extra will be converted to glucose and then fill glycogen until it's full, at which point it will be turned into fat, lol. Everything leads back to fat on your ass if you take in too much. I've never really considered this as controversial either. I don't think Ray did either. The only fringe takes I've seen disputing this type of stuff are the Gary Taubes's of the world who have these broscience opinions about insulin driving fat gain instead of simply eating too much.
Yeah I like Mike a lot, can't say I've watched many of his videos though. I saw the most recent one about vitamin A, and an older one where he and Danny was with like two other people and they were all talking and taking questions. Looked like a livestream thing or something. Kyle Mamounis was always my personal favorite, but he is quite elusive. Not making many posts. Usually a video like once a year, and here lately nothing at all really.
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