NDT protocol?
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Hi everyone. I’m reviewing how to optimize my Thyroid the Peat way using Armour thyroid.
How do you guys dosing and frequency the NDT? With or without food?
Broda Barns recommended his patients to take it all in once in the am, anyone doing this?
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Not armor thyroid, but I’ve been using the Forefront Health 130mg capsule NDT for the past couple months. I take three capsules a day, one in the morning, a second capsule four hours later, and then a third around 6 hours later. I take all three with food.
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Hi @GRay, I follow Ray’s advice of taking thyroid with food to slow its absorption when getting more than physiological amounts of T3 (4 mcg per hour). I’m down from 3 grains to 1 grain of Armour since tweaking my diet so I’m able to take it without food—I take half a grain in the morning before breakfast and the other half before bed.
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@Jennifer Hi Jennifer, I remember talking with you before about this.
I remember you were taking half grain with each meal at the time. I think also Danny Roddy was recommending this protocol. I would do this, but I think if I take the Armour too close to bed time it disturbs my sleep. I'm currently taking 1 grain in the am and I just went up to half grain after lunch which is about 6/7hr later.
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Hi @GRay, I remember you saying that taking it too close to bedtime disturbs your sleep so it makes sense to me for you to take it earlier in the day, and there’s no need to split it up like I do if your dosing schedule is working for you. I only split it up into half grains because I’m managing PTSD and along with certain dietary interventions, having some thyroid before bed reduces the frequency of nightmares and anxiety attacks I experience. If it weren’t for that, I would take the full grain with breakfast and be done with it for the day.
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@Jennifer I understand, it is good you can tolerate it right before bed, I think many people can't.
I'm often very sensitive to feeling wired at night, and I'm suspecting is due to my SIBO, elevating ACTH. Perhaps once I get SIBO under control I can try the Armour later in the day again, as it seems like when I take my second dose after lunch I get too much of a boost, it makes me think spreading it out more might be better, just like Ray recommends.
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@GRay, I actually got the idea from Ray. He said that taking thyroid at bedtime helped his sleep and since many of my experiences mirrored his, I gave it a shot. He even wrote about the topic in his newsletters:
“Thyroxin, T4, helps to reduce the nocturnal level of the pro-inflammatory thyroid stimulating hormone, TSH, but 5 or 10 mcg of the immediately active T3 at bedtime will usually produce sleep within a few minutes."—March 2018
“In the last 20 years, I have seen almost everyone’s insomnia disappear when they correct their hypothyroidism, sometimes just with dietary changes, but more often with a thyroid supplement. Many times, people have told me that they get to sleep within a few minutes when they take a minimal dose of thyroid at bedtime."—April 1994
https://raypeatexplained.com/ray-peat-on-sleep/
Like you, I used to feel wired at night, especially when my thyroid crashed and stress hormones were at an all-time high to compensate. I never had an elevated ACTH level, though, not even when the SIBO was at its worst, and the only time I experienced too much of a boost from thyroid was when my cholesterol dropped too low (115) and it was triggering stress hormones. Once I got my cholesterol up (178) per Ray’s suggestion and my adrenaline under control with frequent snacking on sugary and salty foods throughout the day, I experienced relaxation from thyroid, and still do, to the point of napping after taking it, which Ray said happens when getting the right amount because thyroid has a relaxing function. Anyhow, fingers crossed you eliminate the overgrowth soon so you can trial thyroid later in the day.
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@Jennifer thanks for putting the quotes together.
I tried in the past to take some Armour before bed but it gave me a restless feeling while sleeping, not a restorative sleep. I think I was having enough carbs back then, but it might be worth to give it another try since I just realized if I take the extra half grain at lunch it gives me too much of a boost, and I noticed I became more snappy/irritable and actually having more trouble falling asleep, but I had more energy/strength.
I tried to skip the half grain at lunch time yesterday and I thought I was more normally getting tired and sleepy at 8:30PM, but I believe I'm more prone to second winds when I get sleepy and tired about that time.
What do you think is happening here? perhaps I just don't tolerate much T3 at all in the afternoon and it is causing all of those issues? maybe I should try one dose all in the am? what would you try next? I drink OJ and salt few times during the day, some dextrose and more fruit/maple syrup sugar with salt.
I actually saw some benefits of taking that extra 1/4 for a total of 1 grain and half. my afternoon temp rose to 98.6/7 but still am temperature taken with a basal body temp was 97.
On one grain and a 1/4 my tot Cholesterol was 250 LDL 191
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You’re welcome, @GRay. Given the increased energy accompanies irritability and a wired feeling, it sounds like you may be experiencing what Ray called a “stress, speedy adrenaline reaction” when you increase your thyroid dose because of the overproduction of adrenaline that has been compensating for your under-active thyroid. I think it’s worth a shot taking the full dose in the am (with breakfast). That should tell you if your reaction is due to the time of dosing or the extra 1/4 grain.
Out of curiosity, have you tracked your temp (including extremities) and pulse rate before you eat and roughly 20–30 minutes after you eat? You mentioned having sugar and salt a few times a day—have you tried having milk (not skim) with white sugar added or some cheese with the OJ instead? Given some of your symptoms like the irritability and second wind at night, I’m wondering if you’re experiencing hypoglycemia—which triggers the release of adrenaline and cortisol to raise blood sugar and is common with thyroid dysfunction—and would benefit from the stabilizing effect of having fat and protein with the carbs?
And for reference, here is a quote from the radio interview Ray had with Patrick Timpone on March 16, 2020 where he talked about the adrenaline reaction to thyroid:
“I've seen hypothyroid people who had just hour after hour, their blood would be saturated with as much as 40 times the normal level of adrenaline compensating for the low thyroid function. And so when you first take thyroid, if you have been overproducing adrenaline, you will experience a stress, speedy adrenaline reaction. People think that's the thyroid action, but actually the thyroid has a relaxing function. You have to adapt to it gradually by getting your adrenaline under control. And having a sugary and salty foods while you're adjusting to your thyroid will let you keep the adrenaline under control. And then when your thyroid function is good, adrenaline is all good. It speeds your thinking and does everything helpful for adaptation. It's just the overproduction of it, usually from hypothyroidism, that becomes a stress problem.”
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I measured before my temps before and after a meal and I found them pretty much the same, HR the same or higher depending on what type of carbs I eat. Unfortunately I do not do well with milk, probably because the SIBO. I do tolerate ok cheese though, but I have also protein and fat 3 times per day. I probably think eating starch at night could increase my change of getting a second wind later before bed
I took this am 1 grain plus a 1/4 and I felt pretty good I thought, and that is all Im taking for the day. Even years ago I remember having issues with taking a half grain in the PM, either affecting sleep or if I would take it with lunch feeling stimulated.
Maybe the all in the am dose can be best for me. I think Broda Barns always had his patients taking the full dose of Armour in the am and he was successful on treating his patients this way.
Thanks for helping troubleshooting my thyroid issues Jennifer.
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My pleasure, @GRay.
I’m gland to hear you felt good taking 1 1/4 grains in the am. Hopefully, taking the last 1/4 grain, whether in the morning with the rest of your dose or at lunch, works out well for you too so you can finally eliminate the SIBO and resolve your other symptoms.
