A combination of vitamin B1/B3/B7 and aspirin, has curative effects on human mantle-cell lymphoma
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@ElijahKrings Elliot from EONutrition has many good videos explaining the differences on his youtube channel
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@Dakota there was an older study on the old forum where b1 and b7 together restored glucose oxidation. Im assuming its pure Warburg effect
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@haidut Groundbreaking work! Were going to look back at this study to "where it all began"...hopefully.
Im wondering if the addition of biotin (and maybe aspirin) was the deciding factor? IIRC your earlier studies had less of an anti-tumor effect and did not include biotin.
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@RePeat Looks like there have been some related studies posted about the topic, thanks m8.
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/using-vitamins-biotin-for-improving-glucose-control.5862/
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System unpinned this topic on
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@haidut I hope you stick around. I see you started posting on RPF again after being unbanned. Which is fine, but I think we all see the writing on the wall for that place.
Good work on the study.
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There are studies on each of these vitamins for cancer or other serious diseases, so I based the dosing on that, but also tried a few experiments with lower and higher doses and this is the dose for the vitamins that worked best. The aspirin dose is also based on an animal study with cancer, I think it was liver cancer, and the animals were fully cured.
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I answered the dosage question in a previous comment/response. The biotin dose may look large, but it is actually lower than the doses currently tried in human studies for multiple sclerosis or Huntington disease (300mg daily). In fact, I tried a higher dose biotin with the same cancer line and the results were not better, but actually slightly worse. So, it is all based on prior studies published by others, current clinical trials, and also my own experiments with lower/higher doses until I find out what works best for each vitamin.
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The 6g+ Ray mentioned was when aspirin it used by itself. However, the combination of the B vitamins, in those doses, has a number of effects that are strongly anti-cancer and would allow for lower aspirin dose to be used. Vitamin B1 is a PDH activator, and also carbonic anhydrase inhibitor, both of which have been shown to be therapeutic in cancer. Niacinamide raises NAD+/NADH ratio, is anti-inflammatory, and inhibits excessive fatty acid oxidation, both of which have been shown to help with cancer. It is also a PARP-1 and CD38 inhibitor and those pathways are already used to treat cancer. Finally, biotin has been shown to raise CO2 levels, bypass any blockage in PDH and improve mitochondrial function, which is why a high-dose biotin (300mg) is currently in human trials for multiple sclerosis, huntington disease, and I diabetes all of which share many commonalities with cancer.
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IP5 has impressive reports, including complete reversal or metastatic/terminal melanoma in a human patient.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30615010/But if the protocol works, there is no need to add another ingredient. Occam's rule and all that. Though it is nice to have a list of alternatives to try if the effect is not strong enough in some people.
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Yes, it will be tried again with 3 groups of 5 mice each - one control, one "standard of care" treatment, and one with the vitamins/aspirin. The initial studies are all small to keep costs low and to discover what MAY work. There is no need to do 50 mice, in animal studies 5 mice per group is enough and if the second study also shows complete cure while the control and standard group all die, then it is hard to argue it is an anomaly, especially if it is a repeated occurrence/result. Also, I will try a few other cancer types and different species (hamster, rats, etc) and if it works there too, then it is pretty clear the mechanism is very broad/systemic and not tumor-dependent and not species-dependent, in which case it becomes almost irrefutable that whatever mechanism this works through is very systemic and also that cancer is NOT a genetic disease.
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I already did a prior experiment with the same tumor line but the B1 used was prosultiamine instead of thiamine Hcl. The results were identical with the thiamin Hcl experiment. So, I decided to use thiamine Hcl going forward precisely because it is so cheap and widely available and it is legally almost impossible to ban. Prosultiamine can easily ve declared a drug and pulled off the market. It has already happened in several Asian countries with other B1 analogs such as sulbutiamine.
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Yep, one of the reasons why I included both. There are studies for each individually regarding glucose oxidation and CO2 levels, and there is also a study showing synergistic effects when combined.
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The addition of biotin was definitely a major step forward. First, I tried thiamine and niacinamide only. There was an effect but it was just delaying growth and ultimately the result was still lethal, despite doubling or tripling the lifespan of the treated animals. Adding biotin led to basically stopping growth, then there was even regression of tumor size and then the growth stayed flat, but there was no cure. Adding aspirin produced the rapid and complete disappearance seen on the graph. Aspirin by itself at the same dose, and in combination with quinine, had the same effect as the B1+B3 (without biotin).
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Yeah, I still post there and think of it as an act of good will. Also, there is a LOT of info accumulated there and I don't want it do suddenly disappear. Disagreement over diet/ideas aside, I think it would be better for everybody if the info there stays publicly available. However, if the current anti-retinol movement grows stronger it may eventually become incompatible with the bioenergetic theory. In such a scenario, I think the forum owner himself will probably change the forum name and the forum direction officially, at which point there will be no point to keep posting.
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Bingo. And there are lot more posted there, including on B1 and B3 specifically for cancer. So, if the latest experiment gets replicated in a bigger study (upcoming) then I think there is a very solid background of evidence that can be cited as a justification/explanation of why simple vitamins can be so effective. As Ray said, at higher doses every isolated substance can act more or less like a hormone, and the combination of these vitamins happens to address the main metabolic blocks in cancer (as well most other chronic conditions actually). It would be a hard fight, but medicine needs to change its attitude on "vitamins" as those are only vitamins at lower doses. At higher doses , and used together, they become potent metabolic drugs.
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@haidut Remarkable that biotin is so effective. I would assume that B1 can substitute for it (especially in terms of Co2 production), but that is apparently not the case.
Good Luck. -
@haidut have you ever come across an alternative to normal biotin, like ttfd or benfo is to thiamine? curious why some vitamins have different forms available and biotin doesn’t
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@haidut said in A combination of vitamin B1/B3/B7 and aspirin, has curative effects on human mantle-cell lymphoma:
one "standard of care" treatment
awesome
I'd love to see the "standard of care" proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be relatively ineffective versus B vitamins and aspirin, your work is very inspiring -
I thought of a possible critique of this study design:
since these are human cancer cells being injected into mice, is it possible that their immune systems are simply fighting the cancer as if its an external pathogen whereas if the cancer was of the mice's own cells, their immune systems would not be fighting as hard against the cancer cells?
ie is it possible that the vitamin combination plus aspirin is simply bolstering the mice's immune systems instead of causing apoptosis via the restoration of OXPHOS?
Not saying I believe this to be the case, but I think trials in organisms whos cancer is induced in their own cells would be necessary to rule out the possibility completely. -
Biotin is quite useful and most people probably don't get enough as per CMJ anywhere from 150mcg into the mgs doses might be needed depending on context which is impossible to get from diet alone. If estrogen is high and pushing down the pedal on acetylcholine production then b1 becomes more complicated to supplement so biotin becomes a good way to help with glucose oxidation in that scenario (among with loads of other benefits too) until b1 is more viable potentially
