how do you justify meat eating?
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@natureman said in how do you justify meat eating?:
@random said in how do you justify meat eating?:
@natureman said in how do you justify meat eating?:
@random do we need to go back to Weston A Price and Ray Peat work? Everything has been proven already. The whole argument against meat is idiotic. You watched too many disney movies.
Read above.
what has been proven, bring arguments dont appeal to authority falacy
Haha Fuck Off. This is not appeal to authority, this is: go and read on your own. I'm not going to spend hours picking the information that you are too lazy to obtain. It's all there for people who want to know. The arguments that I brought in the beginning of the thread are already enough.
Rope. It is, you make claims, you attribute them to certains people implying these people proved something, yet you cant source anything, i aint gonna try to find the sources of all baseless claims. You are lazy. It is all there but you Cant provide it. You didnt bring any argument, the instinct argument is horrible, and the you need to slaughter and eat other animals to be healthy, what is your source?there is many counter claims, like africans that seems to be going strong that drink milk only for a whole year as adults
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@random so you are vegetarian? You might be already to far removed from reality to be saved.
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@natureman said in how do you justify meat eating?:
@random so you are vegetarian? You might be already to far removed from reality to be saved.fj
I am not. Learn to read. Is your brain stuck in binary false dichotomy? If someone doesnt claim that slaughtering and eating animal flesh is absolutly healthy and necessary for health Independently of context, therefore he is a vegan/vegetarian? Are babies or adult africans drinking milk only for a whole year brainrotten vegan/vegetarian?
i asked for sources, and mentionned counter exemples to your claims, that's it.
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@natureman said in how do you justify meat eating?:
@random
If you say organs and meat tastes bad, then you're buying bad quality from sick animals. Stop supporting that and buy good meat.
The meat,organs,fat i got are from animals that eat only grass and/or milk, 0 cereals, 0 vaccine, freely roaming, not all animals are in optimal health, and none of these factors guarantee that the organs, fat and meat will be tasty, smell good and make you feel good. And most beef are castrated even in grass fed organic, most meat is from mâles at least where i got meat from.
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@random why don't you become vegan or vegetarian?
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@natureman said in how do you justify meat eating?:
@random why don't you become vegan or vegetarian?
Gotta experiment more, food chain is flimpsy whever animals products or vegetables products
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@natureman I am not a vegan lol. ive probably eaten more raw meat than you
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Arguing with meat eaters who argue against meat eating. What a idiotic waste of time.
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@natureman said in how do you justify meat eating?:
Arguing with meat eaters who argue against meat eating. What a idiotic waste of time.
I didnt argue againts meat eating, turn on your retarded brain. If you talk only about him, then its is arguing with one meat eater, not many meat eaters. And you didnt bring any argument
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My body seems to enjoy it.
Would prefer to just live off dairy if I could.
But they'll just die in the wild anyway so what does it matter unless you are planning on trying to protect every animal on the planet from a predator attack.
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this feels like talking to bots, but I'll repeat and leave it here again in case some poor soul considers to stop eating meat. You need the nutrients from meat to have a healthy mind and body. If you only eat cheese and milk you'll become deficient.
Now it's up to you (no not you @random and whatever other idiots keep talking to me) to look up which nutrients would be missing.
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@natureman rope. I didnt talk to you initially, you did. You are a bot, you make claims, you dont provide any sources, you dont understand what you write and what other write.
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@natureman there is no logical fundamental basis / reasoning / place of meaning in your comment that "arguing" with meat eaters who "argue AGAINST" meat eating is a waste of time. by your own assertion and not being a hypocrite it would be a waste of time to "argue" any topic one wishes to explore/discuss that one engages in, like talking about if porn is bad or not while still watching porn, or masturbation, or any other habit or technique one engages in but is unsure about. What you are saying means nothing except to not talk about things for an illogical reason.
Your lack of cognitive capacity to reason this out before posting / or at least edit it after accepting it makes no sense, is a proof that your personal meat eating isn't what is providing the essential nutrients to you to perform at a top level.
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@Hearthfire said in how do you justify meat eating?:
Does a lion think about the ethics of killing a water buffalo? No. It fucking kills, eats, and survives.
Good observation. It doesn't make sense for carnivores to feel such deep empathy for animals that they would avoid eating what is natural to them. It doesn't... and yet humans can feel that way? This tells me that humans aren't naturally carnivorous, and it also creates some doubt for humans being omnivores.
A person could argue that humans have lost their carnivorous instincts and can feel bad about killing animals because of modern living, but I don't think this is the case. Cats (true carnivores), do not lose their instinct for hunting and killing animals, even when more separated from nature than humans. I have seen this myself; my mom owns a pet cat. I think, for humans, the ability to kill animals without feeling bad is an adaptation that can be useful in certain environments.
Humans aren't herbivores either, of course. Herbivorous animals look very different from humans. Also, we can't extract much energy from leaves and grass. They are generally not very appetizing either. Instead, I think humans are non-obligate frugivores. Out of all foods in their natural state, ripe fruits (as a group) taste the best, smell the best and look the most appetizing. Fruit is also the most suitable food for the human gut:
- Flashback Friday: Paleopoo – What We Can Learn from Fossilized Feces (perhaps not a good idea to link to a vegan doctor... at least the sources can be found below the video. Relevant part 0:00-2:31)
My experience fits this. My gut function was the best when I ate only fruits for a few weeks.
There are more arguments for why humans are frugivores, but I won't go over them all in this thread. If anyone is interested, there are two books I can suggest:
- The Natural Food of Man by Hereward Carrington
- Return to the Brain of Eden: Restoring the Connection between Neurochemistry and Consciousness by Tony Wright and Graham Gynn
If you were to read only one of the two, I'd recommend Return to the Brain of Eden. It has less arguments for humans being frugivores but it's a newer and, in my opinion, much more interesting book. It presents a hypothesis that humans grew their large brains in the tropical rainforest, in a peaceful area with an abundance of fruit. It also goes over some latent abilities humans seem to have, and attempts to explain why modern humans are insane.
An interview with Tony Wright, but it's not nearly as good as the book. But the book, while being thought-provoking, isn't perfect either.
There's also a Nature article which correlates fruit intake with brain size between species of primates (not necessarily between individuals). The more fruit in their diet, the larger their brains. But I don't have access to the article:
I also vaguely remember that fruit bats have larger brains than other bats.
@Corngold said in how do you justify meat eating?:
they say plants can feel pain. Ok, so probably air and water can feel pain too, and the aether / electromagnetic fields. Clouds are literally being born and dying in a matter of minutes. Pain is always being exchanged for goodness. In this way there's always an exchange.
That argument could be made. However, that doesn't seem to have much effect on empathy. At least for me, I do not like to kill plants just for the sake of it, without it being beneficial for me or other people. But I have no problem with eating plants for nourishment. Killing animals would be a problem for me.
And the relationship we create by eating ripe fruits, at least in a natural environment, is symbiotic, not predatory like it could be said to be with other plants and animals. Fruit trees produce tasty and nutritious fruit for animals to eat, then the animals spread the seeds of the fruit. Both benefit.
@eduardo-crispino said in how do you justify meat eating?:
everyone eating meat knows slaughterhouses are horrorshows yet just ignore it.
@happyhanneke said in how do you justify meat eating?:
Just like anything else they show you some horror stories that are exceptions.
The Psychological Impact of Slaughterhouse Employment: A Systematic Literature Review:
- "It was found that SHWs have a higher prevalence rate of mental health issues, in particular depression and anxiety, in addition to violence-supportive attitudes. Furthermore, the workers employ a variety of both adaptive and maladaptive strategies to cope with the workplace environment and associated stressors. Finally, there is some evidence that slaughterhouse work is associated with increased crime levels. The research reviewed has shown a link between slaughterhouse work and antisocial behavior generally and sexual offending specifically. There was no support for such an association with violent crimes, however. Based on existing research, we suggest future directions for research (i.e., applying more methodological rigor) but highlight key findings for practitioners and policymakers that warrant attention."
I didn't read the entire thing. Feel free to point out any mistakes. However, it's intuitively clear to me that that kind of environment and frequently repeated killing of animals would be harmful in some way or another.
@natureman said in how do you justify meat eating?:
People eating (even store bought packaged) meat are much more ethical and empathic towards animals than any vegans and vegetarians. Vegans just look the other way.... out of sight out of mind.
The video you shared... The animals humans eat are fed those same foods. And it takes much more plants to feed animals and then eat the meat than it would for humans to just eat the plants.
As a side note, I first stopped eating meat because I thought it was healthy. I didn't really care much about the animals. But after not eating meat for a while, I noticed that my empathy increased and I started to care quite a lot about animals. Meat does contain endotoxins and, iirc, Haidut posted about endotoxin reducing empathy. However, chocolate also contains endotoxins and I eat a lot of dark chocolate. I haven't noticed that it reduces my empathy.
All this being said, I have to make two important notes:
- The way I see it, for a perfect human living in a perfect environment, fruit is the perfect food. But we aren't perfect, and neither is our environment.
- The general (e.g. humans being frugivores) is there to give a direction for further exploration, not a rule that everyone must rigidly follow. Personal experience is more important.
In @Aniciete's case, it seems like eating meat is better than eating fruit. But in the case of @eduardo-crispino, it's probably better for him to follow a meatless diet for a while and carefully observe any changes. Eating meat against one's feeling that it shouldn't be done, even if meat would otherwise be healthy, would cause mental harm, and the mind and body are connected also. If it turns out that avoiding meat causes him problems, he might become more comfortable with eating meat again.
As for justifying meat consumption, I don't think it needs to be justified, but not because I think eating meat is wrong. Instead, it's because I don't think it is either right or wrong for everyone. Observe yourself and you might find your answer.
It hurts me a lot to see people fighting like they have on this thread. Perhaps that's part of why I withdrew myself from the world years ago...
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@NoeticJuice here's the article dawg https://annas-archive.org/scidb/10.1038/s41559-017-0112/
p.s. it is fun and energetic in a good way to engage in fights with some people sometimes. it is fun in some situations.
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I stopped eating meat (I can't digest it, because of biliary pancreatitis)
now I eat red lentils, a liter of yogurt with bifid bacteria, olive oil (coconut oil gives me severe colic) I also eat apples and some berries...
I mean that a vegetarian diet can be useful for some
