The future of oral testosterone
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@alfredoolivas said in The future of oral testosterone:
Messy stuff, I wouldn't consider exogenous progesterone pro anabolic
Alone progesterone isn't pro anabolic that's why for the millionth time I suggested to take androgens with it, Less circulating estrogen and doses of androgens that your physiology would naturally create, would perform and behave a lot more effectively (due to less aromatization) . this is literally stuff Haidut brought up 10 years ago on raypeatforum
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What role is progesterone supposed to play exactly? If you're using it as an AI, why not just use aromasin or proviron or masteron instead?
I don't think you're correct that it prevents shutdown and in fact I think it directly causes it.
I don't think progesterone is a male hormone. It's for women. We have DHT. We need it for sure in small quantities but I would not be looking to raise it much as a man
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@jamezb46 said in The future of oral testosterone:
What role is progesterone supposed to play exactly? If you're using it as an AI, why not just use aromasin or proviron or masteron instead?
we are aware progesterone antagonizes estrogen right? we are aware that estrogen is "the atrophic factor for both male and female gonads" according to Haidut... testosterone enanthate into excessive estrogen is what causes LH and FSH to plummet. progesterone just reverses this
aromasin would work almost identically instead of progesterone, haidut commented on his prostate cancer tumor study during christmas holiday 2024 where he used DHT and exemestane that he could have used progesterone instead of asin and gotten better results. (because prostate cancer is an estrogen driven process) https://x.com/haidut/status/1871926201247477883
@jamezb46 said in The future of oral testosterone:
I don't think you're correct that it prevents shutdown and in fact I think it directly causes it.
right now you could inject 25mg of testosterone enanthate, feel your testicles close up and topically apply 5-6mgs of progesterone anywhere on your body and you would feel your testicles open up. Or you could read anything Haidut has ever posted on raypeatforum https://lowtoxinforum.com/threads/pregnenolone-p5-fully-prevents-testicular-atrophy-due-to-steroid-ab-use-or-high-estrogen.31880/
even if progesterone does inhibit LH, it inhibits it transiently (a non-issue if you take androgens at the same time), meaning if you want to take an excessive amount of androgens it should be done with progesterone to avoid excessive aromatization to avoid nuking FSH and sperm production
@jamezb46 said in The future of oral testosterone:
I don't think progesterone is a male hormone. It's for women. We have DHT. We need it for sure in small quantities but I would not be looking to raise it much as a man
never said progesterone was a male hormone, but its not feminizing in the presence of androgens. progesterone production in males and females is about the same up until age 12 iirc
really don't understand how I need to say the same thing in different forum posts over and over to get this point across to you when this is old news from haidut
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@dht I respect your opinion but Haidut is not a bodybuilder. Show me the athletes/bodybuilders who followed this progesterone advice and I will take it more seriously. Just because he said it doesn't make it true.
As far as I am concerned, it is at best a theory with some evidence in rats or mice. There is plenty of evidence against it.
Consider this study which shows argues that progesterone causes gyno in hyperthyroid men who again according to Haidut have LOW estrogen
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3335607/
I largely agree that excess aromatization is probably what largely contributes to HPTA shutdown.
But the solution I think should be low dose test, an AI if necessary, and plenty of DHT or Mast.
I guess I neither see the need for elevating progesterone in men nor do I see any evidence that it actually works in practice. I am more than happy to believe in it if people want to come forward with their actual progress and experience but until then I'm skeptical of it.
Even Peat would sometimes say on podcasts/radio shows that 20 mg progesterone for men could give them a numb penis so I think he understood the risks.
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@jamezb46 said in The future of oral testosterone:
I respect your opinion but Haidut is not a bodybuilder. Show me the athletes/bodybuilders who followed this progesterone advice and I will take it more seriously. Just because he said it doesn't make it true.
Last I checked this is a bioenergetics forum not bodybuilding forum, you are free to experiment on yourself if you have the aptitude and the awareness of ongoing hormonal changes happening in your body.
@jamezb46 said in The future of oral testosterone:
I largely agree that excess aromatization is probably what largely contributes to HPTA shutdown.
But the solution I think should be low dose test, an AI if necessary, and plenty of DHT or Mast.
You agree with me but you want to achieve something in a less effective way?
@jamezb46 said in The future of oral testosterone:
Even Peat would sometimes say on podcasts/radio shows that 20 mg progesterone for men could give them a numb penis so I think he understood the risks.
Do you have any reading comprehension? I literally said progesterone likely transiently inhibits LH(if it even does inhibit LH), then yes you will have no androgens produced for a brief time and your penis will cease to work. Where did I suggest to ingest progesterone without androgens?
@jamezb46 said in The future of oral testosterone:
https://sci-hub.se/https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3335607/
High serum free estrogen and normal free testosterone levels have been reported to cause gynecomastia in hyperthyroid men (2). The fact that progesterone enhances estrogen stimulation of mammary gland growth (6) strongly suggests that high serum progesterone levels in hyperthyroid men may contribute to the development of gynecomastia in cooperation with the imbalance between estrogen and testosterone. Epidermal growth factor has been reported to influence mammary gland growth (14), but its effects on gynecomastia in hyperthyroid men are
not known.You really cherry pick the worst studies, even the last one you posted completely went against yourself.
@jamezb46 said in The future of oral testosterone:
I guess I neither see the need for elevating progesterone in men nor do I see any evidence that it actually works in practice. I am more than happy to believe in it if people want to come forward with their actual progress and experience but until then I'm skeptical of it.
- Links inconclusive study twice
- Doesn't listen to endocrinological fact
- Ignores criticism and new ideas
- understands that p4 can achieve a hormonal state but wants to do it in a less effective way
Like what are we doing here? I give you a way to take infinity androgens and you still managed to not comprehend my point? Is this a troll to keep me replying? Have you ever experimented on yourself? Are you new to peat and haidut's ideas?
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@dht I promise I'm not joking I'm just telling you what I think.
I still don't understand what role is being filled by progesterone that isn't filled by simply blocking estrogen.
Some people for example think that progesterone has a unique role in regulating myelin production.
But I haven't really heard a good argument for the necessity of progesterone as an exogenous hormone for men but if you have one I am curious.
BTW I think that the smartest way to use gear is to use DHT or non-aromatizing- based compounds for cycles of about 4-6 weeks followed by abating for a couple weeks at minimum before going back on. There are studies showing that DHT does not cause HPTA shutdown, especially if it isn't allowed to convert to 3 beta androstanediol, which is an estrogenic metabolite.
I don't think I'm necessarily cherry picking studies. To the best of my knowledge there aren't more studies showing that progesterone itself causes shutdown of the HPTA because pharma companies instead fund studies investigating synthetic progestins as male contraceptives. There are plenty of studies showing that those are effective at shutting down the HPTA.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11585019/
"Testosterone (T) and other hormones such as progestins suppress circulating gonadotropins and spermatogenesis and have been studied as potential male contraceptives"
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20933120/
"All hormonal male contraceptives use testosterone, but only in East Asian men can testosterone alone suppress spermatogenesis to a level compatible with contraceptive protection. In Caucasians, additional agents are required of which progestins are favored. Clinical trials concentrate on testosterone combined with norethisterone, desogestrel, etonogestrel or depot-medroxyprogesterone acetate."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12641635/
"Both progesterone and desogestrel administration resulted in decreases in the concentration of both LH and FSH secretion, as well as testosterone. Analysis of the pulsatile nature of LH secretion indicated that both treatments reduced LH pulse amplitude, and that progesterone reduced LH pulse frequency. Progesterone, but not desogestrel, treatment also reduced the increase in LH secretion in response to GnRH."
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@jamezb46 said in The future of oral testosterone:
BTW I think that the smartest way to use gear is to use DHT or non-aromatizing- based compounds for cycles of about 4-6 weeks followed by abating for a couple weeks at minimum before going back on. There are studies showing that DHT does not cause HPTA shutdown,.
I said this 2 weeks ago and brought up the idea of using tren for the same purpose
@jamezb46 said in The future of oral testosterone:
I still don't understand what role is being filled by progesterone that isn't filled by simply blocking estrogen.
By taking Progesterone and or Pregnenolone you are reinforcing the steroid cascade in a protective way. You could just as likely take Exemestane instead as it turns into a pretty strong androgen downstream, On top of that p4 and p5 is a lot easier to source. DHT doesn't block aromatization like Exemestane or Progesterone does
@jamezb46 said in The future of oral testosterone:
To the best of my knowledge there aren't more studies showing that progesterone itself causes shutdown of the HPTA
Because it doesn't. High doses of Pregnenolone don't shut you down and it turns into DHEA and Progesterone
@jamezb46 said in The future of oral testosterone:
There are studies showing that DHT does not cause HPTA shutdown
So why would basically the female equivalent of DHT shut you down?
The whole point of my first post was that you can take as much DHEA and Testosterone (without shutting down your testes) if you effectively block aromatase alongside it.
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I agree that keeping the steroid cascade going in important, even critical.
If you HPTA is shut down, then even if you are using exogenous androgens, if you aren’t producing p5 and p4 then you aren’t getting any of the benefits that they or their metabolites turn into.
My idea was to use a non-aromatizing compound like masteron or proviron and tbol or whatever else fits the bill with the idea being that your HPTA stays in tact, thus you never lose testicular steroidogenesis completely, thus you still get the youth hormones.
If you were going to use progesterone for this purpose, would you try to inject it or go with oral in tocopherols?
And even if you’re right about progesterone not shutting down HPTA, what do you think about the possibility that it will have anti-androgenic effects at the transcriptional level or even cause lack of libido because of how it affects the male brain?
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@jamezb46 said in The future of oral testosterone:
My idea was to use a non-aromatizing compound like masteron or proviron and tbol or whatever else fits the bill with the idea being that your HPTA stays in tact, thus you never lose testicular steroidogenesis completely, thus you still get the youth hormones.
Masteron and Proviron aren't really that powerful so I would just use DHEA and Testosterone at that point, base versions of Trenbolone or Boldenone if you wanna live a little.
@jamezb46 said in The future of oral testosterone:
If you were going to use progesterone for this purpose, would you try to inject it or go with oral in tocopherols?
I use perfumers alcohol to dissolve the raws and then I apply them topically, the denaturants in it are harmless and you will die of alcohol poisoning before the denaturants will do anything severe, and the raws from purple panda labs.
https://yellowbee.ca/products/perfumers-alcohol-sda-40-b-200-proof?variant=47012889035043@jamezb46 said in The future of oral testosterone:
And even if you’re right about progesterone not shutting down HPTA, what do you think about the possibility that it will have anti-androgenic effects at the transcriptional level or even cause lack of libido because of how it affects the male brain?
I can still get it up on Progesterone with ease, I don't believe the anti androgenic effects are real, it's more that the estrogenic effects go away and that some people attribute high estrogen behavior to androgenic behavior. Progesterone and its Allopregnanolone metabolite along with its aldosterone antagonism makes it a very potent anti depressant
