Study: coconut oil "has the potential to intensify the morphophysiological alterations that occur in the liver during aging" (accelerated signs of liver aging in gerbils)
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Aww…you’re a poet, @Wabi-sabi. I love it! Smelling like vacation is exactly why I use the monoï oil. It transports me to Tahiti.
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It should be more concerning if your ancestors were gerbils
Lol. I don't think it's isolated to gerbils per se, you probably will get similar results if the study used a different mice. The issue I see is the high amount of PUFA in standard lab diet, we can't draw the conclusion coconut oil is the culprit when there is another suspect.
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@Jennifer said in Study: coconut oil "has the potential to intensify the morphophysiological alterations that occur in the liver during aging" (accelerated signs of liver aging in gerbils):
I grew up on French, Cantonese and Polynesian cuisine and coconut was a staple....I even overcame gallbladder disease and liver “sludge,” as the ultrasound tech called it,
Is it possible that your French ancestry made you vulnerable to coconut products? Could butter or even olive oil be safer?
I have been using lots of coconut products off an on including the oil so it's something I think about from time to time. I'm not at all Polynesian.
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@CaptainMeow said in Study: coconut oil "has the potential to intensify the morphophysiological alterations that occur in the liver during aging" (accelerated signs of liver aging in gerbils):
I don't think it's isolated to gerbils
I have the same fear.
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@herenow said in Study: coconut oil "has the potential to intensify the morphophysiological alterations that occur in the liver during aging" (accelerated signs of liver aging in gerbils):
@Jennifer said in Study: coconut oil "has the potential to intensify the morphophysiological alterations that occur in the liver during aging" (accelerated signs of liver aging in gerbils):
I grew up on French, Cantonese and Polynesian cuisine and coconut was a staple....I even overcame gallbladder disease and liver “sludge,” as the ultrasound tech called it,
Is it possible that your French ancestry made you vulnerable to coconut products? Could butter or even olive oil be safer?
I have been using lots of coconut products off an on including the oil so it's something I think about from time to time. I'm not at all Polynesian.
Butter/dairy fat triggered my gallbladder attacks, but not coconut fat. Do you have any symptoms that are exacerbated by coconut or any liver tests that would cause you to be concerned?
Personally, I don’t feel confident in using ancestry to determine the best foods for me. Even if I did, there are question marks surrounding my ancestry. What I do know for certain is that the gallstones and liver sludge were due to thyroid disease that was triggered by the stress of mountain climbing in extreme conditions. My gallbladder and liver were healthy prior, and their diseased state completely reversed after supplementing thyroid, confirmed by a repeat ultrasound after the initial diagnosis, so climbing mountains in snow and flooded trails up to my waist, rapid river crossings, sub-zero temps with up to 60 mph winds that thrashed me against boulders like a ping pong ball, the issue was not my French ancestry and verging-on-the-need-of-an-intervention intake of the delectable drupe from the tree of life :), it was my foolishness in saying yes when my brother proposed the idea that we, having absolutely no prior experience, and I as a 45 kg Olive Oyl, climb the largest mountains in our region, with some of the worst weather in the world, to earn a patch in 7 months.
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@Jennifer said in Study: coconut oil "has the potential to intensify the morphophysiological alterations that occur in the liver during aging" (accelerated signs of liver aging in gerbils):
@herenow said in Study: coconut oil "has the potential to intensify the morphophysiological alterations that occur in the liver during aging" (accelerated signs of liver aging in gerbils):
@Jennifer said in Study: coconut oil "has the potential to intensify the morphophysiological alterations that occur in the liver during aging" (accelerated signs of liver aging in gerbils):
I grew up on French, Cantonese and Polynesian cuisine and coconut was a staple....I even overcame gallbladder disease and liver “sludge,” as the ultrasound tech called it,
Is it possible that your French ancestry made you vulnerable to coconut products? Could butter or even olive oil be safer?
I have been using lots of coconut products off an on including the oil so it's something I think about from time to time. I'm not at all Polynesian.
Butter/dairy fat triggered my gallbladder attacks, but not coconut fat. Do you have any symptoms that are exacerbated by coconut or any liver tests that would cause you to be concerned?
No. I'm bullet-proof
climbing mountains in snow and flooded trails up to my waist, rapid river crossings, sub-zero temps with up to 60 mph winds that thrashed me against boulders like a ping pong ball, the issue was not my French ancestry
Why is a white French woman doing all that crap?
But seriously, thanks for keeping the low pufa community updated on your health. I appreciate that you're willing to be a guinea gerbil for a somewhat unusual pufa depleted diet while keeping everyone informed. Most seem to disappear
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It increases oxidative stress vs lowering it in lower amounts
(Study gives insight on where the harm tips over, 0.1g per mouse vs ~ a bit under 0.2g per mouse as lauric acid makes the difference,
by the time they measured with the lower bodyweight in the higher group it works out like 4g/kg vs 9g/kg bw mice amounts) https://cs3001.substack.com/p/a-bunch-of-quick-health-and-biology.
for a 60kg person >40g coconut oil a day is pushing it i think
(and probably better to split it am & pm)
30g in people beneficial (looks split) https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37409587/Another thing is caprylic acid has a big negative effect on bones at just 8g - 10g human equivalent. with capric acid having a smaller effect. coconut oil is ~10% caprylic + capric, people using MCT oil can hit that
LAA can be directly incorporated into mitochondria and undergo β-oxidation without a special transporter or carnitine shuttle [3, 9]. As a result, it may cause excessive OXPHOS in mitochondria and increase oxidative stress, thereby enhancing the myocardial catabolism pathway.
Immunohistochemical staining with an anti-8-OHdG antibody revealed no accumulation of oxidative stress in the myocardial tissues of the control and 2% groups.
administration of excessive LAA caused mitochondrial damage that produced myocardial damage by inducing catabolism of intracellular proteins by oxidative stress rather than inducing cardiomyocyte apoptosis.
This study revealed that administration of excessive LAA causes myocardial injury.
However, 2% LAA can be administered without inducing obvious myocardial damage. -
for a person 40g+ coconut oil a day is pushing it i think
See? I was right to be go into a panic.
I have keto tendencies and pufa phobias. 4 tablespoons of coconut butter is a light snack.
Damn
Thanks for posting @cs3000
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@herenow said in Study: coconut oil "has the potential to intensify the morphophysiological alterations that occur in the liver during aging" (accelerated signs of liver aging in gerbils):
No. I'm bullet-proof
Great! Then fear not the coconut.
Why is a white French woman doing all that crap?
But seriously, thanks for keeping the low pufa community updated on your health. I appreciate that you're willing to be a guinea gerbil for a somewhat unusual pufa depleted diet while keeping everyone informed. Most seem to disappear
Well, as a white woman, my choice of activity was either hiking or goat yoga, and subjecting goats to yoga is animal cruelty. In all seriousness, I did it for my brother, and now I climb for me.
And you’re welcome, but I do consume PUFA if I crave something higher in it so I may not be the best gerbil.
I know this is just my n = 1 but I ate a lot of Tropical Traditions' coconut concentrate (butter), after my spine collapsed from osteoporosis that was caused by the thyroid disease, and within a year I had increased my bone density significantly—almost a full reversal of the disease—proven by bone scans and other testing. My doctors had never seen such a severe case of bone loss, nor that level of remodeling before. This was even before I started supplementing thyroid. I did it with (natural) food alone.
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@Jennifer said in Study: coconut oil "has the potential to intensify the morphophysiological alterations that occur in the liver during aging" (accelerated signs of liver aging in gerbils):
my spine collapsed from osteoporosis
Reading stuff like this makes me self couscous complaining about how the coconut oil slowed my digestion a little.
I'll add that I was listening to some of Ray Peat's interviews from the last 6 or so years and he seemed to have stopped eating substantial amounts of coconut oil and stopped promoting it as far as I could tell. In one interview he developed concern over the mct fraction.
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@herenow said in Study: coconut oil "has the potential to intensify the morphophysiological alterations that occur in the liver during aging" (accelerated signs of liver aging in gerbils):
@Jennifer said in Study: coconut oil "has the potential to intensify the morphophysiological alterations that occur in the liver during aging" (accelerated signs of liver aging in gerbils):
my spine collapsed from osteoporosis
Reading stuff like this makes me self couscous complaining about how the coconut oil slowed my digestion a little.
I'll add that I was listening to some of Ray Peat's interviews from the last 6 or so years and he seemed to have stopped eating substantial amounts of coconut oil and stopped promoting it as far as I could tell. In one interview he developed concern over the mct fraction.
No need to feel self-conscious, herenow. My pain doesn’t invalidate your own concerns. Besides, so much good came from it. I’m not sure I would have realized what I’m made of or overcome a childhood trauma that was silently robbing me of my best life if it weren’t for my spine collapsing. But yeah, Ray warned that MCT oil is potentially irritating to the intestines and he also wasn’t a fan of unrefined coconut oil and coconut cream/milk.
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@herenow said in Study: coconut oil "has the potential to intensify the morphophysiological alterations that occur in the liver during aging" (accelerated signs of liver aging in gerbils):
@Jennifer said in Study: coconut oil "has the potential to intensify the morphophysiological alterations that occur in the liver during aging" (accelerated signs of liver aging in gerbils):
my spine collapsed from osteoporosis
Reading stuff like this makes me self couscous complaining about how the coconut oil slowed my digestion a little.
I must have been hungry
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@Jennifer What specifically did Ray object to about coconut milk/cream? (You wrote that Ray "wasn’t a fan of unrefined coconut oil and coconut cream/milk".) Do you recall if the mechanism he was concerned about was related to the OP and study posted earlier in this thread?
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@T-3, he objected to coconut milk and cream for the same reason he objected to unrefined coconut oil—it’s potentially allergenic. Unfortunately, I’m unable to search the old RPF for a direct quote, but the exchange below is from an interview with Patrick Timpone:
Patrick: What about refined bleach coconut oil or expeller pressed? Any issues there?
Ray: That's the only thing I've used. Because I used to occasionally get some homemade coconut oil that was just delicious for making ice cream, coconut ice cream. With fresh coconut, it's just a fantastic taste. But it happens to be allergenic. If you have any stress problems or digestive problems, it's better to use the refined deodorized coconut oil.
https://bioenergetic.life/?q=coconut+cream
And below are some of Ray’s email exchanges regarding coconut and coconut oil:
COCONUT
[Coconut meat] "It often causes gas and irritation symptoms."
[Coconut water] "If it is fresh from the coconut, it's good, also if it has been bottled without additives."
[Coconut fiber: If it lowers cholesterol (study), does it also lower estrogen?] "Do you know how the fiber is manufactured, and from what? Fibrous foods can lower both absorbed cholesterol and estrogen, but some fibers are broken down by bacteria to produce estrogenic materials. The husk fiber, coir, is being sold as a food additive. I don't know whether coir has been tested for the release of lignans, which could be carcinogenic. If it's just dried coconut meat, the problem would probably just be gas from the starches."
[follow-up: I have cooked finely shredded coconut meat with some sugar and I have used it occasionally and it works a lot like carrot salad for me but there was some mild gas problem. ] "I think gas is the only problem from the mature meat."
COCONUT OIL
"If you are using coconut oil regularly, that's a possible source of allergens, if it isn't well refined and deodorized."
"Most cities have wholesale grocers that either stock it (in five gallon buckets) or can get it, and they usually charge about $50 per bucket. GloryBee in Eugene is one place I have bought it, and Tropical Traditions has a good one, called expeller expressed, non-certified, and I think it's shipped from Nevada."
"It's just filtered, usually through diatomaceous earth, to remove materials other than the fat; the main problem with the unfiltered oil is that it's allergenic for many people. It also degrades quicker."
[MCT OIL] "The problem lots of people have is diarrhea or other bowel reaction when they take more than a very small amount at a time. The first times I used it I smelled like a goat for several days, and even a small amount is enough for me to notice on my skin the next day."
https://expulsia.com/health/emailexchanges#Coconut
And for anyone who may be interested, below is a link to Ray’s article on coconut oil, along with two experiences he shares in it that match my own with coconut—better blood sugar control and leaning out. In hopes of overcoming my reliance on thyroid supplementation, I’ve been experimenting heavily with my diet since last year and in its current iteration, my caloric intake is up by 300 calories from coconut (mostly milk and young meat) and I’m down two grains of thyroid, I'm leaner/my body is tighter and I now feel hunger without symptoms of hypoglycemia.
“The ability of some of the medium chain saturated fatty acids to inhibit the liver's formation of fat very likely synergizes with the pro-thyroid effect, in allowing energy to be used, rather than stored. When fat isn't formed from carbohydrate, the sugar is available for use, or for storage as glycogen. Therefore, shifting from unsaturated fats in foods to coconut oil involves several anti-stress processes, reducing our need for the adrenal hormones. Decreased blood sugar is a basic signal for the release of adrenal hormones. Unsaturated oil tends to lower the blood sugar in at least three basic ways. It damages mitochondria, causing respiration to be uncoupled from energy production, meaning that fuel is burned without useful effect. It suppresses the activity of the respiratory enzyme (directly, and through its anti-thyroid actions), decreasing the respiratory production of energy. And it tends to direct carbohydrate into fat production, making both stress and obesity more probable. For those of us who use coconut oil consistently, one of the most noticeable changes is the ability to go for several hours without eating, and to feel hungry without having symptoms of hypoglycemia.
Although I had stopped using the unsaturated seed oils years ago, and supposed that I wasn't heavily saturated with toxic unsaturated fat, when I first used coconut oil I saw an immediate response, that convinced me my metabolism was chronically inhibited by something that was easily alleviated by "dilution" or molecular competition. I had put a tablespoonful of coconut oil on some rice I had for supper, and half an hour later while I was reading, I noticed I was breathing more deeply than normal. I saw that my skin was pink, and I found that my pulse was faster than normal--about 98, I think. After an hour or two, my pulse and breathing returned to normal. Every day for a couple of weeks I noticed the same response while I was digesting a small amount of coconut oil, but gradually it didn't happen any more, and I increased my daily consumption of the oil to about an ounce. I kept eating the same foods as before (including a quart of ice cream every day), except that I added about 200 or 250 calories per day as coconut oil. Apparently the metabolic surges that happened at first were an indication that my body was compensating for an anti-thyroid substance by producing more thyroid hormone; when the coconut oil relieved the inhibition, I experienced a moment of slight hyperthyroidism, but after a time the inhibitor became less effective, and my body adjusted by producing slightly less thyroid hormone. But over the next few months, I saw that my weight was slowly and consistently decreasing. It had been steady at 185 pounds for 25 years, but over a period of six months it dropped to about 175 pounds. I found that eating more coconut oil lowered my weight another few pounds, and eating less caused it to increase.”
