Vit E and Vit K
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Word to the wise, vitamin E can antagonize the clotting action of Vitamin K. If you’re going to take aspirin I’d stay away from Vitamin E.
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@EagleTwoRomeo yeah they both thin the blood. Aspirin and vitamin e that is.
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Useful links on liposoluble vitamins
*) Vitamin A, D, E & K - How Much and What Type of Fat Do You Need to Absorb These Fat Soluble Vitamins?
http://suppversity.blogspot.be/2014/05/vitamin-d-e-k-how-much-and-what-type-of.html*) Taking high dose vitamin K
“High dose of vitamin K could prevent us from using osteocalcin.” Chris Masterjohn.
doi: 10.1186/1475-2891-13-85
=> Menaquinone-4 supplementation at 600 μg/day or more is likely to be important in terms of vitamin K requirements for bone health (range 600 – 1500 mcg K2 MK4).*) Effective minimum dose of dietary MK-7 to affect carboxylated osteocalcin/undercarboxylated osteocalcin ratio in blood.
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jnsv/61/6/61_471/_pdf
The present study demonstrated that ≥ 100 mcg K2 MK7 in addition to ordinary meals could improve osteocalcin y-carboxylation status.
Comment:
Of course, taking 15 mg K2 (15 000 mcg) when 2 x 1 mg MK4 could do the job, is kindly different.
Aspirin is ok when taking HD K1 (coagulation not desired).
Info on absorption, target and dosage of vitamin K (and links from Chris Masterjohn and Kate Rheaume-blue) (in French, with English links)
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t1704-vit-k-mk4-vs-mk7-update-02-2020#21497*) Excess quinones overburden the detox pathway Cyp450
Too much quinone is not advised. Same family as tocopherols (Vit E), menaquinones (Vit K2), PQQ or Co-enzyme Q-10 (Q10).
Note: No problem with 2 mg K2 MK4 (2 000 mg), taken separately (at a different meal), but if you combine several supplements, you’d better get informed which molecules could interfere with the detox pathway Cyp450.
Cyp450 detox pathway: https://www.geneticlifehacks.com/liver-detox-genes/
Same subject, in French, but with personal comments:
Voie de détoxification & CYp450
http://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t1609-voie-de-detoxification-cyp450#19224*) 2 x 400 UI mix toco is enough!
- I never take Vit A supplement at the same time as the other lipovitamins. Nor vit D with K at the same meal since we need a lot of fat to absorb Vit K (35 gr lipid is optimal: 14 – 25 – 35 g fat are thresholds impacting the degree of absorption. I target minimum 25 g fat).
- Vitamin E and K share similar transporters/metabolizing enzymes. When high dose Vitamin E is given it may block the transporters/enzymes that are needed to integrate Vitamin K into the appropriate tissues.
Moreover high dose Vit E, K, Q10 and polyphenols leaves quinones but our liver has a limited capacity to deal with. - Vitamin E decreases extra-hepatic menaquinone-4 concentrations in rats fed menadione (K3) or phylloquinone (K1)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22707266
*) Interaction
Synergy effect with vitamin E
“Vitamin C regenerates vitamin E and vitamin E protects β-carotene, helped in this by polyphenols. In the event of β-carotene supplementation, vitamin C regenerates vitamin E and β-carotene, and β-carotene seems to protect vitamin E without really explaining this phenomenon "(1)
Savings effect
Vitamin E is not just a vitamin. Vitamin C makes it possible to recycle oxidized vitamin E and thus prolong its lifespan. The same goes with glutathione which is thus saved for other more useful functions (detox). Glutathion is our antioxidant master. Vitamin E protects against the deleterious effects of polyunsaturated fatty acids when the latter are in excess. And it is quickly done!- John Libbey Eurotext - Anti-oxydants d’origine alimentaire : diversité, modes d’action anti-oxydante, interactions. Auteur : Claude Louis Léger.
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Vitamin E and Vitamin K both play critical but opposing roles in blood clotting—Vitamin K promotes clotting, while high doses of Vitamin E can inhibit it by interfering with Vitamin K's metabolism and transport. If you're taking aspirin (a blood thinner), combining it with high-dose Vitamin E can increase the risk of bleeding. A safer approach is to moderate Vitamin E intake, avoid taking it at the same time as Vitamin K, and ensure adequate healthy fat intake to aid absorption of fat-soluble vitamins. Always consult a healthcare professional before combining supplements with medications.
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@LucH said in Vit E and Vit K:
*) Taking high dose vitamin K
“High dose of vitamin K could prevent us from using osteocalcin.” Chris Masterjohn.
doi: 10.1186/1475-2891-13-85
=> Menaquinone-4 supplementation at 600 μg/day or more is likely to be important in terms of vitamin K requirements for bone health (range 600 – 1500 mcg K2 MK4).game changing stuff
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@LucH said in Vit E and Vit K:
*) Taking high dose vitamin K
“High dose of vitamin K could prevent us from using osteocalcin.” Chris Masterjohn.
doi: 10.1186/1475-2891-13-85
=> Menaquinone-4 supplementation at 600 μg/day or more is likely to be important in terms of vitamin K requirements for bone health (range 600 – 1500 mcg K2 MK4).Vitamin K2 has a safety study of 45mg taken 3 times a day for a total of 135mg a day, and this went on for 12 months with no side effects or measurable changes in hemological parameters (i.e. clotting, etc). In fact, the study said that the optimal dose for osteoporosis may actually be that higher dose of 135mg per day rather than 45mg per day we have all heard of.
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@RayPeatFan said in Vit E and Vit K:
Vitamin K2 has a safety study of 45mg taken 3 times a day for a total of 135mg a day
High dose vitamin K2 MK4
We’re not talking about toxicity of HD vitamin K2 nor what could be the effect of a pharmacological dose of 45 mg K2 MK4 with the target to increase bone density and reduces fracture incidence.
We’re talking about the optimal range for improving γ-carboxylation of osteocalcin.*) Which low dose of vitamin K2 allows carboxylated osteocalcin?
Low-dose vitamin K2 (MK-4) supplementation for 12 months improves γ-carboxylation of osteocalcin in young males: a non-placebo-controlled dose–response study
doi: 10.1186/1475-2891-13-85
=> Menaquinone-4 supplementation at 600 μg/day or more is likely to be important in terms of vitamin K requirements for bone health (range 600 – 1500 mcg K2 MK4).*) Effective minimum dose of dietary MK-7 to affect carboxylated osteocalcin/undercarboxylated osteocalcin ratio in blood.
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jnsv/61/6/61_471/_pdf
The present study demonstrated that ≥ 100 mcg K2 MK7 in addition to ordinary meals could improve osteocalcin y-carboxylation status.Note1: High-dose vitamin K could contribute to vitamin E deficiency.
So, Range 600 – 1500 mcg K2 MK4 is required for bone health.
https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/blog/2016/12/09/the-ultimate-vitamin-k2-resourceHigher Doses for Carboxylation:
Studies investigating osteocalcin carboxylation have used doses ranging from 600 μg to 1500 μg of vitamin K per day, with some showing significant improvements in carboxylation at 900 μg/day or higher.
DOI: 10.1186/1475-2891-13-85 Low dose menaquinone-4 improves y-carboxylation of osteocalcin in young males: A non-placebo-controlled-dose-response study. 2014 Nutr. J. E. Nakamura et al.
https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1475-2891-13-85Note (LucH): Separate the intake of vitamin E and K2 MK4 (half-life of a few hours). The half-life of MK7 is much longer (and fragile) Vitamin K2 MK-7 is said to have a half-life of 3 days (compared to 2 hours for vitamin K1 and K2 MK4).
Mechanisms of interaction
The exact mechanisms of this interaction are not fully understood, but some proposed mechanisms include competitive inhibition of vitamin K-dependent carboxylase by a vitamin E metabolite, or interference with vitamin K activation of the pregnane X receptor (PXR).Useful link (for general understanding on osteocalcin) (in French, with links in English)
Sclérostine et ostéocytes comme chefs de chantier (Sclerostin and osteocytes as project leaders)
Remodelage osseux et voies de signalisation (Bone renovation and signaling pathways)
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t2085-sclerostine-et-osteocytes-comme-chefs-de-chantier#30021 -
@LucH Where is the study that claims HD Vit K could contribute to Vit E deficiency?
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@RayPeatFan said in Vit E and Vit K:
Where is the study that claims HD Vit K could contribute to Vit E deficiency?
No deficiency but possibly preventing from assimilation. No clear proof.
Most studies establish the fact that we should avoid HD vit E (> 300 UI) when taking vitamin K, especially K1. It makes sense (conversion to MK4 more complicated). But that's not this aspect I mentioned. I'm talking about HD MK4 supplement with 400 UI vitamin E.So, studies establishing why or at least mention the advice we shouldn’t take Vit E at the same time as HD K2.
Mechanisms according to MG Traber (deduction)
https://academic.oup.com/nutritionreviews/article-abstract/66/11/624/1868525?redirectedFrom=fulltext
Vitamins E and K appear to share the same metabolic pathways because both undergo side chain ω- hydroxylation and b-oxidation to produce their respective metabolites.Possible mechanisms for the vitamin E and K interaction
*) Vitamins E and K share the same metabolic pathways
*) Vitamin E competes for the enzyme (yet undiscovered) that truncates the K1 side chain to form menadione;
*) Vitamin E increases xenobiotic pathways that increase the metabolism and excretion of all vitamin K forms from the liver;
*) Vitamin E competes with K1 for the cytochrome P450 (CYP) that ω-hydroxylates the tail, thereby preventing the b-oxidation of the tail to form menadione. The latter mechanism is hypothetically less likely because, as discussed by Thijssen et al. (11), there is likely to be steric hindrance preventing the complete removal of the K1 side chain via b-oxidation for menadione formation. All of these mechanisms would decrease the production and/or availability of MK-4. The hypothesis that vitamin E interferes with the conversion of K1 to MK-4 is supported by the observations that MK-4 concentrations in extrahepatic tissue are lower in rats fed a high vitamin E diet.
