Multi vitamin & trace element supplementation useful ?
Adequate intake of certain nutrients is associated with a reduction in all-cause mortality when the nutrient source is foods, but not supplements, according to a new study.
Source:
The benefits and harms of dietary supplements
https://nutrition.tufts.edu/news/nutrients-food-not-supplements
Fang Fang Zhang, M.D., Ph.D at Tufts University. 2019
*) What you won’t have

• No place enough for useful trace elements like Mg or K.
• At least minimum 2 tocopherols (only one: alpha) (vitamin E)
• You need the right fats to absorb the benefits of fat-soluble vitamins (A D E K).
• The right type of all vitamins if you don’t make a sharp search (cofactors or bioavailable)
  *) What you should avoid
• B-50 complex. Not the appropriate dosage (cancer risk). Ok for RDA or 2x/wk.
• Mn, Fe (interaction, pro-oxidant)
• Fillers such Polysorbate 80 (microbiote), titan dioxide (nanoparticules => brain), magnesium stearate (if digestion problems), acacia gum (microbiote), silica. The less additives possible.
• Excess ingredient: 400 mcg folic acid.
• Excess niacin (20-25 mg B3 is ok ; often 50 mg => Mind the kind. Ok for niacinamide / nicotinamide).
• Excess B6 if brain sensitive (20-25 mg B6 PLP is OK)
• Etc.
  *) Monitor copper intake if taking non-stop vitamin B complex, if your intake is low or if you take a zinc supplement (same carrier). 1.5 mg Cu as RDA or 8-10 mg Zn.
  Vitamins that are considered antagonistic to copper are shown in figure below [vitamin B6, A, C, B3, and B5]. Excessive intake of any one or combination of these vitamins can contribute to or exacerbate an existing copper deficiency."
  The Nutritional Relationships of Copper | David Watts
  https://www.traceelements.com/Docs
  *) What I would do when taking a supplement
  B vitamins generally act synergistically. The other B vitamins – other than B1, B2 and B3 – will therefore also be present but just to avoid a deficiency. And the B9 and B12? Joker, at this stage (we haven't forgotten them).
  
  *) What I would mind:

Too much of a good thing is bad.

In cure it would be probably beneficial. Or not every day if you know what to avoid. But I’ve seen so much people believing doing well while it was not appropriate.
In times of uncertainty, doing nothing will be more profitable. Or we limit ourselves to obvious deficiencies when there is a deficit in menus. Knowing that it will always be better to choose a food rather than a supplement.
*) Useful links
*) Toxicité des excipients dans les compléments alimentaires
Contenu et excipients de la Vitamine B complexe : Analyse des produits USA :
http://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t845-dioxyde-de-titane#14314
*) Study led by Dr. Francis Collins. 2019
The researchers found the use of dietary supplements had no influence on mortality. People with adequate intake of vitamin A, vitamin K, magnesium, zinc, and copper were less likely to die. However, that relationship only held for nutrient intake from food consumption.
https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2019/04/16/study-finds-no-benefit-for-dietary-supplements/
Note’s editor:

1. There are biases in the study. E.g. the take of a high supplement Ca (1 000 mg).
2. I do take supplement but I’ve made researches to avoid interaction and counterproductive behavior.
   Out of context: I was declared at high risk last weekend for prostate cancer because I’m 71, don’t eat tomato 4x/wk and don’t exercise enough. So don’t follow blindly one source. Cross-check the information and do cures rather than taking a lot of supplements. A bit contradictory, I know. Too long to explain why here.
3. If you make a search, you’ll have to be able to separate the true from the false and are able to make a synthesis when the sources are apparently contradictory, not to mention the studies in which the conclusion does not reflect the findings established above in the body of the study (conclusion oriented or who advocates more research).

@Mossy said in Clearing up the Confusion about Oxalate Lists:

I keep an open mind — and as you know by now, ask a lot of questions.

I've be discussing the link you gave there:
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t2064-why-the-odd-with-calcium-recommendation#29866
Why weird recommendations about calcium supplement?
Introduction
I had an interesting discussion with Mossy on Bioenergetics Forum about oxalates problems.
“Clearing up the confusion about oxalate lists”
https://bioenergetic.forum/topic/3165/clearing-up-the-confusion-about-oxalate-lists/15
But as I'm not in the best position there to speak freely, I decided to post here, to better control the deviations and digressions.

@Insomniac said in Clearing up the Confusion about Oxalate Lists:

It's good to have another take on the topic. I've started eating cheese with high oxalate foods.

That's the right attitude. However, people who don't like Greek yoghurt, white cheese or Gouda (Vit K2 for the latter), eating round 800 mg Ca the day long is still adequate (from food), according to one study I read (=> 40 40 720 mg Ca). Not optimal but OK. The study did not find a problem, but it was over a fairly short period, I think. People not at risk.

To be reminded: broccoli and oat are rich in Ca. Just to vary.
When I eat spinach with mashed potato, I add 1.5 tsp raw butter and 1 tbp coconut oil and one egg yolk or the full egg.
And as I am careful (I've got one CaOx 5 years ago) (I sometimes speak from experience, without expressly specifying it) I care for it through my day log. I correct it with the evening meal or 1 hour before bedtime with a shake, if necessary.

I have this also:
Stress and Brain Waves
http://americannutritionassociation.org/node/257
Theanine acts on alpha waves
Alpha waves (8.0-13.9 Hz) are connected with relaxation, focus, wakefulness and the production of serotonin, a neurotransmitter in the brain and gut that modulates mood, sleep, sexuality, aggression, and anger. Beta waves (14.0-30 Hz) are associated with concentration, arousal, alertness, and cognition but also anxiety, unease, fight and flight.
Alpha waves are the main brain wave pattern in the wakeful state when relaxed. A normal, healthy day should be spent oscillating from delta/theta to alpha then back to theta/delta. However, in the modern average life a different oscillation pattern is seen.
Additional benefits of L-Theanine include:
L-Theanine closely resembles the chemical structure of glutamate, which is a neurotransmitter related to memory. L-Theanine helps provide a focused concentration and supports healthy neurons.
 Reduces stress.
 Lower anxiety.
 Improves attention.
 Protects neurons from damage and death.
 Helps prevent cognitive decline.
 Boosts serotonin and dopamine.
 Raises gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) levels.
 Increases problem-solving abilities.

@Cearrson said in Raymond on L-Theanine:

looking for a peat quote about l theanine's effects on either the serotonin or the cortisol in the brain? I don't recall exactly but would love to find it.

I didn't find specifically a detailed answer but I have this in my bank:
Theanine Completely Abolishes The Cortisol Response To Stress In Humans
Anti-Stress, Behavioural and Magnetoencephalography Effects of an L-Theanine-Based Nutrient Drink: A Randomised, Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled, Crossover Trial.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26797633
Subjective stress response to a multitasking cognitive stressor, was significantly reduced one hour after administration of the l-theanine drink when compared to placebo. The salivary cortisol response to the stressor was reduced three hours post-dose following active treatment.
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/theanine-completely-abolishes-the-cortisol-response-to-stress-in-humans.9719/#post-125737
Haidut comments:
Given theanine's half-life of 3 hours in blood, and the 5 hours peak in the brain, I would expect an effect that starts after 2h/3h and lasts for up to the 7th hour (4-5 hours of total effect). So, dosing theanine at 200mg every 6 hours seems optimal for this purpose. This is also the dose sufficient for lowering serotonin and raising dopamine. Keep in mind that anything that lowers serotonin will also lower cortisol, so a good portion of theanine's effects may be due to serotonin inhibition. That would make it one of the few multi-mechanism cortisol blockers since it would act both through the GABA pathway and the serotonin blocking pathway. Theanine is also a glutamate antagonist and that is yet another very cool property. Anti-glutamatergic, anti-cortisol, and anti-serotonin drugs have separately been shown to be very potent anti-depressants. Theanine, combing all of these effects, would make a really good anti-depressant IMO. Unsurprisingly, it is being studies as a possible cure for PTSD, which is a disorder that combines all of these dysfunctions.

@Mossy

I have just read the randomized study on the concomitant taking of Ca and Vit D. you posted. Interesting. Thanks.
I’ll come back soon to give a report because there are biases. The author recognizes that there are “gaps” in certain studies (some parameters being not mentioned or forgotten) but he draws conclusions, even though it is well known that a higher dosage Ca should not be taken above 1000/1200 mg. In addition, the authors did not take into account all the activation factors (vitamin K2) or factors that soften/temper the effects of high dose Vit D (thanks to vitamin A, retinol).

But as you could read it, from one influent and insightful (?) forumer, the latter attributes me a copycat reasoning (IA) and a lack of knowledge of RP literature. I agree to concede to him that he has a better grasp / understanding of the “philosophy” of RP’s writings. My knowledge is only partial. And I maintain a certain independence. Too long to explain why here. And I don't really want to argue (sterile and unpleasant).
By the way, my forum has been existing for more than 10 years, and AI is only available from 2 years, less here in Europe.

No hard feelings, but the one_whose_name _I _won't _mention has just dropped in my esteem. What a pity! But hey, I can admit that we all have bad days, except that it's not his first time, when he has someone in his sights.
NB: I intended first to analyze the whole study but I won't do it now. Guess why ...

@yerrag

Yerrag says
I'm just glad I never have to deal with oxalate issues. I don't even think I've heard of anyone in my circles in the Philippines ever mentioning a problem with oxalates. Then again, it may be that it exists and that our doctors and healers here are just unaware of it.
=> The estimated known incidence of hyperoxaluria is between 1-2/10 000 000 per year with no differences between sexes. There are higher rates reported in isolated populations, especially in the Middle East and North Africa.
Note: I haven’t heard HAS reported the incidence of these problems. Underestimated.
HAS = Haute autorité de santé / High authority for health.

(…)
It's a nice effort but a lot of value that I expect to get from health forums is the pooling of successful experiences in fixing a health problem common to many in the hope of being able to start with a hypothesis of how a health issue is cured and end with the hypothesis being validated. This has not been happening at all.
=> I agree that waiting for testimony from experienced case reports would be the optimal choice. But the forum won’t be very animated, supposing the individuals could clearly explained the etiology and how they cured. When you feel foggy, having problems to concentrate and discern the accessory from the essential is difficult. Then you should still be able to report facts, clarifying the context, without digressions on latterly symptoms. Might as well dream, most of the time.

(…)
While I applaud your earnest efforts to aggregate information, I wish there are more among us that don't just come to the forum to learn something only, but to share something of value that comes from good research, and thinking and connecting the dots, and applying this synthesis into their own context, and sharing true successes in healing themselves.
=> Yes, it would be fine.
Would you say the same from CM or RP when talking about sth they see / learn / analyze? No, of course. They often report on what they have experienced or seen.
Do you think there are many experts who spend time on the internet answering questions following a published article or a report on the consultations? Shortly after yes. And afterwards? They do exist but they are only known and accessible by a minority.

(…)
Most of us here face their healing journey with the path laid out by modern pharma without realizing that path leads to a dead end. Relying on single compounds as a magic bullet is one example.
Healing is like cooking. You can't just mix a few ingredients together and heat and serve a nice dish. There is a process that makes a dish good, just as you need a process for healing to really happen.
Instead, we can be likened to a bunch of groupies flocking to listen to a rock star. And all the rockstar does is to tell us take this take that. In this sense, there is really not much of a difference to seeing a regular doctor where all he does is dish out a prescription that also says take this and take that.
=> I understand your deception.
Note: Knowing how to listen is already valuable. Discerning or trying to circumscribe a problem with a view to directing you to a health practitioner if appropriate would be welcome.
Should we throw the baby out with the bathwater because the situation is not optimal? No, of course, provided there are safeguards. That’s another problem.
Please, do not answer, except if you don’t agree or see a problem with the initial post about how to manage to avoid hyperoxaluria. Thanks for comprehension.

@Insomniac said in Clearing up the Confusion about Oxalate Lists:

Is there any reason to avoid oxalates if it's eaten along with lots of calcium and sulfur to neutralize the oxalate?

Short answer:
I won’t bother much if you drink milk and your daily intake for calcium turns around 800 mg Ca.
Why? Your ratio Ca / Ox is higher than 1/3 (1/3 Ca is sufficient).

Context:
You consume between 150 – 200 mg oxalate as most people, although our liver can only manage 50 mg oxalate a day. The rest of the oxalate will theoretically be captured by the Ca and form a soap which will be excreted via the stools.
But then you’re supposed to manage well how to avoid lithiasis.
Taking some sulfur (MSM = 34 % sulfur element) is interesting when detoxifying. Or you eat some vegetables of the alliaceae family (mind getting enough selenium and iodine, Se before / first if you thyroid is borderline).

You haven’t yet got any CaOx but you manage well when eating spinach or rhubarb. You don’t eat a lot of almond, except if you limit it to 30 gr / 1 oz. (23x), not every day and if possible sprouted (without the brown husk)
Even if you don’t perceive it, you weaken the tubules of the kidneys and the walls of the intestines with CaOx.
So, nothing to worry about if you digest well, you don’t bloat, have no gas and flatulence. Once every 3 months is not problematic. Question of frequency.
But personally, I would act differently, not waiting for the problems to arise.

Concrete example (my case report):

• I’ve had one CaOx in my urine 5 years ago.
• I’ve dealt with suspicion of SIBO/SIFO last year. Under control (histamine, bloating and flatulence).
  When I eat potato puree (mashed), with a small onion, frozen spinach – or broccoli flowers – and one egg + butter, I take the following supplement if spinach (> 600 mg Ox)
• Potassium citrate 1.3 g x 2 doses.
  => It makes a smooth salt, 100 x less solid than calcium oxalate. So less aggressive since the salt has no sharp edges.
• But if I hadn’t eaten dairies I would have handled it in a different way to avoid exciting PTH.
  Last evening, I saw my Cronometer log at 270 mg Ca, with a weak intake of magnesium, and a sufficient ratio Na / K. Not enough vegetables and fruits. So I decided to prevent night cramps …
  Explanation:
  Parathyroid hormone (PTH) stimulates bone resorption by acting directly on osteoblasts cells.
  PTH is going to increase calcium levels in blood by increasing osteoclastic activity. Principle of opposites. When the blood calcium level is too low, the body responds by secreting more PTH. This causes the calcium level in the blood to rise by breakdown of bones.
  TSH should be kept between 0.5 and 2.5. Not 5.
  Link: Bone remodeling by osteoclast when TSH is activated.
  => Bone remodeling and modeling. Video 4’
  https://youtu.be/0dV1Bwe2v6c
  Wikipedia:
  Bone resorption is resorption of bone tissue, that is, the process by which osteoclasts break down the tissue in bones and release the minerals, resulting in a transfer of calcium from bone tissue to the blood. => Ca is needed to assure the right pH. balance in blood, when the right acid-based balance is not optimal (between 7.35 and 7.45, I think).

*) What did I do?
1 hour before bedtime (more convenient for me)

• 100 ml mineral water (low mineralized)
• 1 big caps calcium citrate 1000 mg (330 mg Ca element) (Kal brand). Need some coconut oil to swallow it (otherwise difficult). (1)
• 2 doses of potassium citrate (1.3 g x 2) (21 % K by weight)
• 1 dose Magnesium bisglycinate (2.5g) (14.1 % Mg by weight)
• 1 speculoos (snack 6.7 g). Not necessary but easier to make supplements move downwards.

Source and References

1. Am J Ther. 1999 Nov DOI: 10.1097/00045391-199911000-00005
   Results: Calcium absorption from calcium citrate was consistently significantly higher than that from calcium carbonate by 20.0% in the whole set, by 24.0% in Category A, by 27.2% on an empty stomach, and by 21.6% with meals.
   Conclusion: Calcium citrate is better absorbed than calcium carbonate by approximately 22% to 27%, either on an empty stomach or co-administered with meals.
   Note1: it’s better to absorb small doses 200-250 mg Ca element if you can.
   Optimal vitamin D levels are necessary to increase the efficiency of calcium absorption. No supplement Ca if no K2 hasn’t been taken, if you don’t want Ca to deposit in joints (arthrosis) or in arteries (clot).
   If you’re at risk of AVC, don’t take high dose calcium at the same time as vitamin D3. We found a higher risk, we do not explain how.
   NIH 2019 doi: 10.14797/mdcj-15-3-207

*) Useful info (in French, translator needed)
Calcium : Quelle supplémentation ? – Test Calcium Citrate
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t1935-optimiser-l-assimilation-du-calcium-en-supplement#27328
Excerpt:
Calcium absorption from all sources was estimated to be about 30 %.
Results showed that calcium absorption from calcium citrate malate as tablets was significantly higher in these adolescents (p< 0.03) compared to calcium absorption from CaCO3 (calcium carbonate).
The average absorption from CaCO3 was approximately 27% (13 to 40%), whereas that from calcium citrate malate was approximately 36% (27 to 53%). The average difference in absorption was approximately 10% between these two sources of calcium.
https://efsa.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.2903/j.efsa.2007.612
Note: Calcium bisglycinate has a rather better absorption rate but it’s not appropriate if you try to manage histamine level. Hydroxyproline from collagen or bone broth is not advised. A high level of glycine is not adviced too.
DOI : 10.1016/0016-5085(91)90024-f
Test des acides biliaires liés à la glycine et / ou la taurine.
Pour une concentration donnée, les acides biliaires non conjugués et les acides biliaires conjugués à la glycine induisaient une libération d’histamine plus importante que les acides biliaires conjugués à la taurine. L’acide cholique et ses conjugués ont provoqué une libération d'histamine bien moindre ou nulle.
NB : Question de fréquence et de proportion de glycine ingérée.

Online Sources for Medjool Dates

(you can let fall it but it will avoid sterile discussions and a loss of energy, which is quite stressful and unpleasant).

High but not or not well justified

1. https://ohf.org/fruit-oxalate/ (Oxalosis & Hyperoxaluria Foundation)
   Dates, Chopped 8 mg / 45 gr => 17 mg / 100 g.
2. 24 mg for 1 Medjool date (University of Michigan Health)
   Michigan Medicine: “Foods High in Oxalate.” National Food Institute.
   Date are high in sugar as well as oxalates, with one date containing 24 milligrams. July 18 2024
   https://www.webmd.com/diet/foods-high-in-oxalates
   “Foods high in oxalate” Michigan Medicine, University of Michigan.
3. Al-Zahrani, Khaled S.; Faqeeh, Akram A.; Abdulghani, Zuhair R.; Thomas, Selvin P. (2022). "A review on the physicochemical properties and utilization of date seeds in value-added engineering products". Springer Science and Business Media LLC: 10433–10490.
   doi:10.1007/s00289-021-04048-3.
   => https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00289-021-04048-3 =>Limited to a summary. No details on dates.
4. https://ohf.org/vegetables-oxalate/ (Oxalosis & Hyperoxaluria Foundation)
   Mind these fruits: rhubarb, kiwis, dates, raspberries, oranges, tangerines. This doesn't mean you can never have these healthy treats. But you have to manage (…)

High level of oxalate for Medjool dates (with details)
1) Medjool dates are high in oxalates (18–233 mg/100 g dry weight).
Alahyane, A.; Harrak, H.; Elateri, I; Ayour, J.; Ait-Oubahou, A.; Benichou, M.; et al. (2021). "Evaluation of some nutritional quality criteria of seventeen Moroccan dates varieties and clones, fruits of date palm (Phoenix dactylifera L.)". Brazilian Archives of Biology and Technology. 82: e236471. doi:10.1590/1519-6984.236471. PMID 34105667.
Original Article • Braz. J. Biol. 82 • 2022 • https://doi.org/10.1590/1519-6984.236471
=>Chemical composition of 17 varieties of Moroccan date fruits (Phoenix dactylifera L.) and to determine their nutritive components. The analysis showed that the dates are rich in sugars (51.80-87.98%), they contain low concentration of proteins (1.09-2.80%) and lipids (0.16-0.39%). The predominant mineral is potassium (1055.26-1604.10 mg/100 g DW). Moreover, they contain high concentrations of malic acid (69.48-495.58 mg/100 g (DW)), oxalic acid (18.47-233.35 mg/100 g DW) and tartaric acid (115.70-484.168 mg/100 g DW).
2) TLO list
Trying Low Oxalates (TLO) group on Facebook (membership required). When you join, just follow the directions there and you will be able to access it (they don't allow to publish the list). Be respectful.
https://lowoxalatekitchen.com/blogs/blog/how-to-find-a-reliable-oxalate-list
=> https://lowoxalatekitchen.com/pages/resources
Fruit List (Excerpt)
Low Oxalate
● Apples (Gala, Granny Smith, Cox, Fuji, Pink Lady
● Blueberries (up to ½ cup or ~100 grams)
● Grapes (Green, Red)
● Honeydew
● Kumquat
● Lychee
● Passion Fruit
● Tamarind
● Watermelon
Low to Medium Oxalate*
● Apple (Braeburn, Macintosh)
● Avocado (Hass, very ripe)
● Banana
● Cantaloupe
● Cherries
● Cranberries
● Dates
● Grapes (Black)
● Jackfruit
● Mango
● Nectarine
● Pineapple
● Pear (Bartlett/Williams)
● Peach
● Plum
● Strawberries
*The fruits listed under “Low to Medium Oxalate” can still be eaten. They have been put into a separate category because if they are eaten in larger amounts, they can move into the medium oxalate category. I still use them, but just make sure not to overdo it.

*) Visit the Harvard Nutrient Database
(no Medjool date found)
Harvard has released an updated Oxalate list, providing new information on the oxalate content of various foods.
The values on the list may differ due to factors such as growing conditions and measurement methods.
The overall advice for kidney stone prevention remains the same: eat all foods except almonds and spinach products in normal portions.
Other important factors for kidney stone prevention include getting enough fluids, reducing added sugar and salt, and ensuring adequate calcium intake.
https://kidneystonediet.com/updated-oxalate-list-from-harvard/

Useful link
Video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k5IQFfS5Is
By Jill Harris, LPN, CHC. May 3, 2024
https://kidneystonediet.com/why-do-oxalate-levels-vary/
With an update of Harvard list
00:00 Introduction: Harvard's Updated Oxalate List
09:05 The Importance of Fluids, Calcium, and Balanced Nutrition
14:13 Portion Sizes and the Role of Advice
Who is Jill HARRIS?
Jill is a nurse and health coach that specializes in educating patients on kidney stone prevention. For more than 20 years she's helped patients understand that kidney stones can be prevented with the right treatment plan. It's one thing to be told to lower oxalate or drink more water, but HOW do you do it? That's where she comes in. Through the educational resources at https://kidneystonediet.com, stone formers can learn everything they need to know to significantly lower new stone risk.
Excerpt
Harvard has updated its Oxalate list, providing new information on the oxalate content of various foods. The list includes six new pages of information, including foods that have never been studied before. While the values may differ depending on factors such as growing conditions and measurement methods, the overall advice remains the same: eat all foods except almonds and spinach products in normal portions. (Irony) (…)
Get the latest Harvard Oxalate List

*) The opposite sources. Here is one of them. Jill HARRIS speaking.
Note’s editor: Search with: why are oxalate content of *dates so variable?
https://sallyknorton.com/fact-or-fiction-dates-are-low-oxalate-food/ 10/2022
“The Low Oxalate Diet Addendum 2011 Fall- Numerical Values Table.” The VP Foundation Newsletter, no. 36 (November 2011): 17–20.
“The Low Oxalate Diet Addendum 2012 Summer- Numerical Values Table.” The VP Foundation Newsletter, no. 37 (June 2012): 6–9, 19–25.
=> The peer-reviewed medical literature doesn’t include dates in the oxalate data testing reports. However, the VP Foundation sponsored tests of dates performed in Laramie, WY at the University of Wyoming by Dr. Michael Liebman and his team. They tested Medjool dates three times, California-grown Deglet Noor dates once, and another unspecified variety grown in Pakistan.2
According to their reported results, 24 grams of pitted Medjool dates (around one date) contains approximately 1–2 mgs of total oxalate. 24 grams of Deglet Noor dates (about three and a half dates) contain around 2 mg.1 No published testing found over 2.5 mg of oxalate per 24-gram serving.
If Dr. Liebman’s testing is right, dates are low oxalate foods. Yet mainstream sources like WebMD and Harvard incorrectly claim dates are high in oxalate, without offering any citations showing where they got this idea. They also failed to indicate the varieties, rendering the data useless.
These “reputable” and familiar institutions are seemingly reporting oxalate data, but not really. Verifiable testing shows them to be flat out wrong. This misinformation, coupled with a lack of transparency, is adding to the confusion around oxalates.

Sources and References

1. Impact négatif de l’oxalate sur le métabolisme : Chaos biochimique !
   https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t1959-impact-negatif-de-loxalate-sur-le-metabolisme-chaos-biochimique#28275
   => Why and how excess oxalate, not modulated by the intake of food or useful molecules, can be the cause of a lot of health problems. That’s an understatement! (In French, translator needed).
2. Why oxalate levels vary so much – By Jill Harris, LPN, CHC. May 3, 2024
   https://kidneystonediet.com/why-do-oxalate-levels-vary/

• update of Harvard list
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k5IQFfS5Is
  => Click to open hidden text.
  00:00 Introduction: Harvard's Updated Oxalate List
  09:05 The Importance of Fluids, Calcium, and Balanced Nutrition
  14:13 Portion Sizes and the Role of Advice
  Who is Jill HARRIS?
  Jill is a nurse and health coach that specializes in educating patients on kidney stone prevention. For more than 20 years she's helped patients understand that kidney stones can be prevented with the right treatment plan. It's one thing to be told to lower oxalate or drink more water, but HOW do you do it? That's where she comes in. Through the educational resources at https://kidneystonediet.com, stone formers can learn everything they need to know to significantly lower new stone risk.

3. Link for updated list (new additions) from Harvard, per serving size. 11/2023
   https://kidneystonediet.com/updated-oxalate-list-from-harvard/
4. Online Lists Will Keep You Feeling Confused About Oxalates in Foods
   https://sallyknorton.com/oxalates-in-foods-how-to-make-sense-of-the-data/
5. Calcium Oxalate in plants. Franceschi, V. (2001)
   https://www.foodunfolded.com/article/what-are-antinutrients#ref1
6. Excretion of oxalates
   https://kidneystones.uchicago.edu/2015/11/16/how-to-eat-a-low-oxalate-diet/
   One can consider a whole food 1000 mg calcium 50 mg oxalate as a usable low oxalate diet, and a 150 – 250 mg oxalate diet as relatively high. The balance between diet calcium and diet oxalate does not matter greatly if diet calcium is high. Among normal men and women eating 1000 mg/day of calcium and 750 mg/day of food oxalate, 24 hour urine calcium was about 110 mg/day and oxalate about 44 mg/day.

When diet calcium is at least 1000 mg daily the balance of calcium to oxalate within any one meal is not likely to affect stone risk.

If diet calcium is high, as it should be, at about 1000 mg per day, then one should try to limit diet oxalate below 100 mg daily.
Note: Bone broth and collagen supply is not a good plan if you bring ¼ of your proteins from these sources, rich in hydroxyproline.
Oral loading with gelatin can raise urine oxalate
=> Ten normal people eating a 1000 mg calcium, 150 mg oxalate diet (typical normal level) were fed supplemental gelatin as one quarter of daily protein intake. Urine oxalate was 24 mg daily vs. 17 mg daily when the same diet was supplemented with whey protein – containing little hydroxyproline – as a control. So lots of jello is not an ideal plan for stone formers.
7) Do not take a magnesium supplement with a rich oxalate food.
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t2061-comment-eliminer-loxalate-oxca-lithiase#29850
See & “Tenue de route”
8. TLO list (simplified version)
Trying Low Oxalates (TLO) group on Facebook (membership required). When you join, just follow the directions there and you will be able to access it (they don't allow to publish the list). Be respectful. https://lowoxalatekitchen.com/blogs/blog/how-to-find-a-reliable-oxalate-list
=> Fruit List from https://lowoxalatekitchen.com/pages/resources
Low Oxalate
● Apples (Gala, Granny Smith, Cox, Fuji, Pink Lady
● Blueberries (up to ½ cup or ~100 grams)
● Grapes (Green, Red)
● Honeydew
● Kumquat
● Lychee
● Passion Fruit
● Tamarind
● Watermelon
Low to Medium Oxalate*
 Apple (Braeburn, Macintosh)
 Avocado (Hass, very ripe) ((Mind the type, note’s editor; it’s the black one)
 Banana
 Cantaloupe
 Cherries
 Cranberries
 Dates
 Grapes (Black)
 Jackfruit
 Mango
 Nectarine
 Pineapple
 Pear (Bartlett/Williams)
 Peach
 Plum
 Strawberries
*The fruits listed under “Low to Medium Oxalate” can still be eaten. They have been put into a separate category because if they are eaten in larger amounts, they can move into the medium oxalate category. I still use them, but just make sure not to overdo it.

How Much Oxalate is Low, Medium or High?
In general, low oxalate foods will have 5mg of oxalate in a serving, between 5-15mg is considered medium, and anything more than 15mg is going to be high. The key phrases here are in general and in a serving. You might have noticed that one list will refer to a food as low oxalate while another refers to it as medium, or one will say a food is medium, and other will say that the same food is high.

Useful link:
*) ## How to get rid of oxalate? Causes and identification
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t2061-comment-eliminer-loxalate-oxca-lithiase#29853
=> Useful ingredients (in French, translator needed)
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t2061-comment-eliminer-loxalate-oxca-lithiase#29851
=> Insoluble and soluble oxalates