Liver Function to be addressed first before anything else? (Confusions from old post from Haidut)

[bobopobo10]

An old message from the Ray Peat Forum that I was curious about

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haidut said: So, assuming one keeps a steady dietary supply of sucrose (or some other type of sugar), wouldn’t the constant presence of glucose in the blood stream keep insulin chronically elevated too? I have read various, and often contradictory, statements from Peat about the whole blood sugar and insulin thing. Often, he says that it is important to always keep blood glucose up to keep cortisol at bay and metabolism high. Of course, this means insulin would be elevated chronically too. On insulin, Ray sometimes says it is a good hormone responsible for anabolism and keeping tumor growth under control. At other times he has said that elevated insulin is not a good thing. So, I am bit confused about the overall dietary guidelines. Should we try to keep blood sugar elevated all the time but at a certain stable (and reasonable) level, which would imply higher (but stable insulin), or should we do pulse feeds which would temporarily bring insulin up to shuttle the glucose to the muscles and then insulin goes down and the body runs on glycogen from the liver?

I suspect a number of people on the forum struggle with this issue as evidenced by several posts of rapid weight gain, elevated blood glucose and insulin on blood tests and worried doctors making recommendations to cut down on sugar, blood pressure rising in people who did not have blood pressure issues before, etc. Some of these things could be beneficial, but there was a post by one person who said her blood pressure went from 120/80 to 150/90 after adopting the higher sugar diet and after some back and forth with her doctor she decided to quit the Peat diet. Then she reported her blood pressure normalizing after reducing sugar intake. Btw, it is well known in the bodybuilding community that cutting carbs works just like diuretics. I am not an advocate of this, but wouldn’t people prone to edema and having thyroid problems get their water-retention problems exacerbated if they increase sugar/carbs intake? I guess that would happen at least initially and the theory is that as their metabolism normalizes they should be able to better utilize glucose and then lose all the excess water. So, the million dollar question is how long does one have to re-feed higher carbs diet (and suppress fatty acid oxidation through the Randle effect) until their insulin sensitivity is restored?
Finally, there have been a number of reports on Peatarian and occasionally on this forum of people experiencing proteinuria (protein in the urine) when increasing sugar intake above 200g daily. If you are eating 80g+ of protein then you probably strive to eat at least as many carbs. Peat has said that this proteinuria is due to people burning PUFA, which makes albumin leak in the urine and show up on the tests but as far as I can tell, these people were actually burning fat before adopting the higher sugar diet and only experienced proteinuria after increasing sugar intake. Of course, they could have had this issue all along and only realized it after switching and measuring their urine but there are several reports of this so I doubt it’s a random thing. Somebody also posted a study on thousands of university employees and those who consumes the most sugary drinks reported the highest incidence of proteinuria.
It would be nice if we can get some guidelines on this. Personally, I use caffeine to increase the utilization of sugar and don’t really have issues with it, but in theory there should be a way to handle sugar from diet without relying on sugar burning aids like caffeine and/or thyroid. Thyroid does not seem to be a good option for me, and I have tried all kinds of supplementing schedules and dosages. As I have posted on other threads, my experience with sugar only improved after I took serious measures to “normalize” my liver function through caffeine and vitamin K2, BUT my liver enzymes were NORMAL according to the standard lab ranges. If the stats are true and over 80% of people over 30 have some degree of fatty liver, which is the real cause behind type II diabetes, then I think many people adopting the Peat diet will likely experience stress reduction through the lower cortisol, but may end up making their fatty liver worse, especially is supplementing niacinamide and aspirin. Such_Saturation and I posted about this in another thread.
So, my main point is that burning sugar is definitely preferable to burning fat based on both Peat’s writings and all the studies I have seen about liver disease being caused by increased lipid peroxidation byproducts, and cirrhosis (in alcoholic rats) being easily and succesfully treated by feeding about 60g-70g of saturated fat like butter or coconut oil for a week, while the rats kept drinking alcohol at the same time! So, on the point of burning sugar I think the question is settled that it is preferable to burning fat.
However, the point is to actually BURN the sugar rather than simply feeding ourselves more of it. For people with sluggish livers, many of whom also take niacinamide and aspirin, this is likely to make the metabolism situation worse by fattening the liver even more, even though admittedly the fat synthesized will be saturated since it is made from sugar. But fatty liver will increase your estrogen no matter how saturated the fat is that you are synthesizing. So, fattening up the liver even more probably won’t do much good for metabolism. Another suggestion from Peat would be to increase protein intake to at least 80g a day which should support liver function, lower estrogen and increase conversion of T4 into T3. However, that will likely also not work very well in people with sluggish and fatty livers since underperforming liver will convert a lot of that extra protein into ammonia. Even Peat is clear on this point in one of his articles where he says that “hyperammonemia can be caused by exhaustive exercise or hypothyroidism”. This is also evidenced by a number of studies showing that people in their late 30s, 40s, and 50s experience chronic fatigue issues that are greatly helped by giving them ammonia-reducing agents like ornithine or sodium benzoate. And those people consume nowhere near the 80g of protein Peat recommends. So, if they are having ammonia issues imagine how would the people loading up on extra protein would feel.
Which brings us to the point that for many people over the age of 30, simply increasing sugar and/or protein will likely not solve the metabolic issues. Thus, the Peat diet, while the correct way to eat, may not be a solution to the issues of hypothyroidism, but rather a way to avoid the worse option of running on cortisol and adrenalin, which while energizing in the short run will ruin you in the longer run.
Considering the Barnes book “Hypoglycemia: It’s not your brain, it’s your liver”, which I read, it seems that restoring optimal liver function is also a key to improving metabolism. Yes, thyroid function is important too, but I think Peat’s recommendation on supplementing thyroid even in the presence of normal thyroid labs may cause issues for a number of people. Charlie, and at least 20 other people have posted on struggling with supplementing thyroid. If they take it, they develop teeth issues, skin issues, anxiety or some other unpleasant symptoms. If they don’t take it, their digestion slows down to a crawl or they start getting hypothyroid symptoms like brain fog or muscle issues, etc.
So, if the stats are true and the evidence I have seen is legit, then eating according to the peat guidelines is a great strategy AFTER metabolism is fixed. But if 80% of people over 30 are having liver issues or some other problems with metabolism, then the diet will be certainly supportive, but likely not “curative”. And for some people with particularly bad liver problems the situation may end up getting worse in a way due to even more fatty liver issues or higher ammonia levels. Just ask anybody over the age of 40 if they are having trouble maintaining (let alone building) muscle mass.
Then the question becomes, what will aid metabolic recovery, other than blindly supplementing thyroid even in the presence of normal thyroid labs? I guess the answer Peat will give is that one needs to wait at least 4 years and get rid of the PUFA before starting to see solid results. There is some solid evidence in favor of lower PUFA fixing metabolic issues. But I wonder if working on liver health or trying to build more muscle will also help while waiting out the PUFA detox period? Uncoupling agents are probably also key, but they should probably be other than aspirin since it may make fatty liver issues worse for many people if used in the doses needed for mitochondrial uncoupling. Finally, increasing CO2 production or intake somehow will also likely have a key role. Just throwing things out there that seem to be cardinal methods for improving metabolism.
Sorry about the long rant, I just felt like this deserves some attention since a number of threads pop on the forum asking the same questions and I have been thinking about this for some time. If someone knows about Peat’s definitive opinion on this issue please share it. Maybe I missed it in his articles. IMHO, after reading pretty much all of his published stuff, reading people’s testimonies/complaints, cross-referencing this with studies, and my own experience, I think a number of chicken/egg question still remain.
Anybody care to comment?
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Do you guys agree with this? In a state of poor liver function what should one do, I’ve taken aspirin and niacinamide and noticed no difference. (I know the Low toxin stuff is different from Bioenergetics, but would I need to supposedley "detox" the liver, I don't know)
And before this I’ve tried Camphosal and Oregano to reduce gut microbes but realized I have to focus on my thyroid (TSH was 5.29, no clue about other thyroid hormones). But then i would have to focus on liver function before thyroid.

For context I’ve been eating a good diet for the past 1 year. Mixture of Paul Saladino and Bioenergetic diet, always had high carb, and eating enough calories.
Is caffeine (would prefer not to) and K2 (take 2-4 mg a day currently) the solution to this?

Also Georgi, in the above post from 2014 or 2015, said that aspirin/niacinamide may worsen fatty liver, but then I think has later said that it does the opposite, so I'm confused.

Any help is appreciated, Thank you!

[Homo_normalis]

@bobopobo10 Been in the Peat space for many years now, never saw this very thoughtful comment by Haidut. It's a huge breath of fresh air. But I'm not surprised; it is Haidut.

I wish I had answers to some of these puzzles. The liver problems + T3 can indeed cause its own set of issues: commonly low cholesterol for young people. Personally I found this manageable with supplementing progesterone and DHEA in a very high ratio. Management is not a cure, however. Low cholesterol is a miserable experience. Some would call it debilitating. If there is a Peat protocol for fatty liver I simply have no idea what it is. He mentioned stories here and there. He treated a decades-long alcoholic with severe cirrhosis with gigantic quantities of progesterone in vitamin e + 100 mcg T3 every day! He mentioned stories of people who told him they cured their NAFLD with over a pound of fructose a day. Sometimes things just work, apparently.

Maybe the pessimistic peaters have it right (assuming they exist). Just eat less.

“But if someone isn't diabetic and they add that amount of sugar, it's all unnecessary excess calories. In the case of the diabetics, they were powerfully deficient in calories and so when they added half a pound of sugar, they were simply making them calorie neutral and it shifted them to an anabolic metabolism that made the calories more efficient for rebuilding muscle. But a person who isn't in that dying state from advanced diabetes always has to attend to keeping their calorie intake within their metabolic consumption.”
“ But gaining fat weight means definitely that you're out of balance taking in too many calories.”
“A low-fat milk diet with adequate vitamin D is a very efficient weight loss diet as well as therapeutic in a variety of other conditions.”
https://bioenergetic.life/clips/a1562?t=2675&c=46

The dilemma us lifelong-metabolism-wrecked Peaters have is as follows:

• One eats sugar and Peat-friendly foods to lower stress hormones and improve mental stamina/acuity. And one gets inevitably fat. One also quickly developed fatty liver in the process.
• One starts taking thyroid. This brings limited success depending on the prior LDL state. And not just LDL. Sometimes the body simply does not respond so perfectly to thyroid, even with nutrition optimized. I won't speak for everyone on this.
• If one eats less it commonly involves a reversion to the prior state. We all came here for a reason in the first place. Depressed, anxious, slightly stupider.

I have to wonder whether this or a similar dilemma caused Haidut to shoot his shot with uncouplers (DNP). I wish him the best in this.
For the record I never had any great surge in metabolism from PUFA depletion (I started this in 2018). I never even had the seemingly-ubiquitous anti-sunburn experience people claim after a few months of lowering PUFA.

There is probably a way to manage this dilemma, but it ends up being more pessimistic than many would like. You will have to eat less and try to manage hormones as best you can.

My semi-serious advice: sex with woman and have her make progesterone baby. Peating isn't for you.

P.S. Georgi thought aspirin might be a net-negative for fatty liver back then? No way he still thinks this.

[LetTheRedeemed]

@Homo_normalis I’m finding the best success is to treat every problem like a law of nature: multifaceted attack or it doesn’t work. We are intelligent beings, and our problems require intelligent attention. We are not simple organisms, so we don’t have simple fixes. That’s where I’ve seen the most success — as well as in other areas of life.

Prior to being surrounded by 5g and spike proteins, a boomer in 1990 could have a bowl of ice cream and take a bolus of pregnenolone every night and cure cancer after 2 weeks…

Not one, but all:
Thyroid
Progest-e
Sodium and calcium Chanel blockers
Liver and oysters
Calcium twice a day
High dose Vit D and K
High dose aspirin
Ice cream before bed
Red light
Psychological peace and joy (Prayer and Bible reading)
—soon to add negative ion generator
—soon to add a med that is a potent parasympathetic system switch

The level of attack on the human organism in 2026 is unparalleled in human history.