Vitamin D paradox
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Vitamin D paradox
Taking HD vitamin D3 but still low blood measures!
This paradox is due to a drawback, a defensive mechanism, not to malabsorption issues, interference from medications, insufficient sun exposure, or the liver and kidneys' inability to convert vitamin D to its active form. At least, most of the time.
Highlights
Taking HD vitamin D3 can be counterproductive if on a usual way
The vitamin D receptor is then downregulated
Calcitriol plays a role in plasma calcium regulation in concert with PTH
Metabolites of excess vitamin D3 enhance protective reactions. Too much of a good thing is bad.
This downregulation prevents excessive and prolonged activation of the VDR pathway.
I'm taking 5,000 IU of vitamin D3, but I'm hitting a plateau. Why?
Vitamin D and thermoregulation
Preamble
We’re not talking here about a punctual HD supplement when suffering from a viral or bacterial attack. Not even when results of your last blood test is under 30 ng/mL D3.
But you could have been taking HD vitamin D3 (5 000 UI) on several months, without reaching your target. I target 45 ng/mL.
You don't understand why you're stuck in a rut. Yet you think you're doing pretty much what you could to supply: magnesium and vitamin D3 supplements. Fruits and vegetables in good proportions, although a little tight (10 portions and 30g of fiber targeted). 20 to 30 minutes of exercise or walking 4x/week. A relaxation technique. In short, you're wondering why you're lacking energy and drive a little too often!
How can I be low in vitamin D3 when I take high doses?
This is actually a relatively common scenario – where a person is taking a lot of vitamin D3 but without getting the expected benefits read in most studies, but suffering from either weak thermoregulation, hair loss or poor energy metabolism. Of course, it’s not due to a one-side problem (additional contributors: combination of various factors, which add up).
Part of the explication: Vit D leaves metabolites
How does HD vitamin D3 leave metabolites?
The vitamin D receptor is downregulated by the high exogenous vitamin D. So, in short, too much of a good thing is bad. The VDR receptor is downregulated. What does it imply?
Research suggests that 25% of people are low responders to vitamin D supplementation, which occurs independently of vitamin D levels in serum. Low VDR function means serum vitamin D can remain high while vitamin D function is actually low.
When does calcitriol leave excess metabolites?
Why do metabolites from excess D3 induce a downregulation of The VDR receptors?
Excess vitamin D metabolites lead to VDR downregulation as a negative feedback mechanism to prevent excessive VDR activation and potential toxicity, including the downregulation of genes involved in vitamin D metabolism. (*) This could be seen as a reno-protective property of the vitamin D-VDR signaling. Why this is Important?
Preventing Toxicity & Maintaining Homeostasis
This downregulation prevents excessive and prolonged activation of the VDR pathway, which could lead to vitamin D counter-effects (excessive).
This feedback mechanism ensures that vitamin D signaling remains within a balanced range, preventing harmful effects and maintaining overall physiological homeostasis. At least it should be act on this way, if you do not overburden the metabolism with a continuous extra take (supplementing with HD Vit D3).
Warning
Don’t question ChatGPT or you’ll get an inappropriate answer. Temperature influences conversion rate, not detection. This is a chemical property rather than a physiological "heat sensor" mechanism. If you still want to search, use the words: ‘the metabolites’ of vitamin D and VDR. Good luck anyway
Sources and References
0. Initial post:
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t2131-english-corner-vitamin-d-paradox#30341- 3 forms of D3 (simplified approach)
- Figure 1: Pathway of vitamin D formation
- Figure 2: Steps in vitamin D metabolism involving CYP450 enzymes
- Low VDR function or overburden nuclear receptors (RXR). VDR and Transcriptional Regulation.
- Excess vitamin D metabolites lead to VDR downregulation as a negative protective feedback
- How to manage.
*) Excess vitamin D metabolites lead to VDR downregulation as a negative feedback mechanism to prevent excessive VDR activation and potential toxicity, including the downregulation of genes involved in vitamin D metabolism, such as the enzyme that produces calcitriol (the active form of vitamin D) and the induction of the enzyme that breaks it down. High levels of calcitriol bind to the VDR, leading to changes in VDR gene and protein expression, which ultimately reduces the number of receptors available to bind to the active form of vitamin D.
https://doi.org/10.1210/jc.2016-1516 JCEM
*) Here Travis discussed how vitamin D lowers heat production, lowers uncoupling protein (maybe as it’s a signal you are getting heavy sun exposure)
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/is-vitamin-d-supplementation-even-neccessary.23844/post-341522
*) Vitamin D and thermoregulation
Induction of uncoupling protein (UCP) & link with vitamin D3.
Energy Metabolism and uncoupling proteins (UCPs)
*) Importance of magnesium ratio to enhance vitamin D absorption
Magnesium status and supplementation influence vitamin D status and metabolism: results from a randomized trial
=> When baseline storage D3 are >30 ng/mL, vitamin D–deactivating enzyme CYP3A4 starts to elevate and the activity is further enhanced by magnesium supplementation. Not under this threshold. -
@LucH What vitamin d do you take Luc?
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@heyman said in Vitamin D paradox:
What vitamin d do you take Luc?
I take Now Foods softgels.
I was taking 5 000 IU during 6 months (latitude 50° N). Not from mi-April till mid- October, when the sun is high in the sky.
The sun's wavelength is good when your shadow does not exceed your height (+/ 1m65 - 1.85 m for most people) (+/ 6 feet).
Mine comes from iherb.com. 2 kinds of softgels. I always take 1 drop K2 MK4 (1 000 mcg) at breakfast. But you need 15 - 25 - 33 g fat to optimize the assimilation of K2.
Once a week I took 10 000 IU retinyl palmitate. But I should have take 2 x 5000 UI. Best bioavailability .
Now, I'm going to take Vit D differently, since I read Travis' post.1° virus: special period: 5 000 UI vit D. 10 000 UI the first 2 days.
2° winter time: 2 000 UI vit D if > 35 ng/ML. More if under the target. Mind magnesium (420 mg) with HD Vit d.
3° summer time: No need if I go out 20-30', otherwise 1 000 every 2 days.
NB: I'm 72 years old. So the assimilation is rather bad.
I take Now Foods.Edit: My info sources come from RP, CM and Travis. Otherwise you make a nervous breakdown if you try to compare different sources. Do not use ChatGPT (errors); or only if you want to summarize a doc.
Note I still need to cross the information and to adapt it to my feeling. I don't always match with the read sources. In a interview, it not the ideal place to inform ... Just a way to search deeper if you have time and energy) -
Useful info on magnesium:
High-Dose Vitamin D Depletes Magnesium – Carolyn DEAN, MD ND.
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t2130-dynamique-entre-vitamine-d-magnesium-et-calcium#30339Excerpt 1:
Magnesium expert Andrea Rosanoff, Ph.D., is one of the few people who understands the dynamic between vitamin D, magnesium, and calcium. She makes it the subject of her 2016 article, “Essential Nutrient Interactions: Does Low or Suboptimal Magnesium Status Interact with Vitamin D and/or Calcium Status?”Excerpt 2:
Magnesium is required for many steps in vitamin D metabolism, including its conversion from its storage form (which is also the supplement form) to its active form. This means that taking extremely high doses of vitamin D can lead to magnesium deficiency without anyone realizing it. -
What methods have you found to counteract VDR down regulation? Aside from the obvious things(take magnesium and K2).
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@maplesyrupbro said in Vitamin D paradox:
What methods have you found to counteract VDR down regulation? Aside from the obvious things(take magnesium and K2).
There is no single answer. Sorry.
=> If I rephrase it:
How to counteract the downregulation of the VDR receptor, if there is a perceived problem by the body?
So, we accept now the fact that VDR acts as a kind of sensor, allowing a retro-feedback. But before explaining “how”, we have to explain “why”, to understand it’s not always black or white.
Think of your VDR receptors as a high-tech toll booth on a busy highway.
If you send a massive convoy of several trucks and cars all at once, you create a total metabolic traffic jam. The system panics, closes half the lanes (downregulation), and calls in the "cleanup crew" (here the 24-hydroxylase enzyme) to divert the trucks off the road entirely just to clear the chaos.
But By sending only a few trucks at a time (fractionated doses), the sensors stay calm, the gates stay open, and the cargo—calcium—is guided exactly where it needs to go by the "GPS" of K2 and Magnesium (as cofactors).
The Conclusion: To keep the sensors sensitive, stop trying to flood the engine; just keep the fuel line steady. Too much "light" at once simply forces the body to pull the shades.For other readers, we’ve got 3 different situations:
- Blood test under the minimum conventional required level: 20 ng/ML. I target 42-45 ng for optimizing immunity.
- Bone fracture or pathology (osteoporosis).
- Trying to improve RDA towards 45 ng when you’re still-standing, though all the parameters are nearly good. The context is correct/fairly good:
- Light exposure
- Stress management
- Immunity
- Lifestyle
- Micronutrition
Absorption plateaus at approximately 30 ng/ml. However, you’re aiming for a minimum of 45 ng/ml, as already said elsewhere.
I won’t act on the same way in the first two situations. Emergency situation.
Now we’re going to optimize the interaction (synergy). But first we have to explain – for “trustworthy readers” (follow-up requested via the appropriate tab) how the body communicates with a feedback. Sorry, by advance, since it’s going to be a little esoteric and long. No need to understand how, in details, by the way.*) The VDR/RXR Mechanism: Competition vs. Cooperation
Vitamin A (Retinol) and D3 "share" the same partner, the RXR (Retinoid X Receptor). So, they can compete when not well supplied. Too much of a good thing is bad.- The VDR cannot bind to DNA alone; it must hook up with an RXR receptor. If there is an overwhelming excess of Retinoic Acid (active Vitamin A), it may saturate the available RXR pool, potentially leaving the VDR "single" and unable to initiate gene transcription.
So remind that taking 10 000 UI retinyl palmitate (Vit. A) once a week is not the good advice (if you want to target the usual advised ratio A/D). Personally, I take 2 x 5 000 UI Vit A per week, at breakfast with some MUFAs. No Vit. D3 supplement at the same time, but at the next meal. - The "VDR Downregulation" Fix: To counteract excess VDR downregulation, you don't just need Vitamin A; you need the balance. Too much A blocks D; too much D can induce a functional A deficiency. The "Triangle" strategy (A-D-K2) I’ve already mentioned in another post is the correct pragmatic fix for this.
*) The Role of the 24-hydroxylase Enzyme
24-hydroxylase (CYP24A1) has been identified as the "off-switch."
Insight: a very high-dose bolus supplementation strongly triggers this enzyme, which then degrades not only the excess but also the active form (1,25(OH)2D). 50 000 UI D3 is a strong bolus. Several times 10 000 UI could be considered on the same way when repeated.
Action: The strategy of fractionation (e.g., 1,000 UI twice daily) is the most pragmatic way to keep VDR sensitivity high without "scaring" the body into upregulating the degradation enzymes, when taking on a usual way.*) Request for AI (gemini3)
Explain this: 24-hydroxylase (CYP24A1) has been identified as the "off-switch."
=> 24-hydroxylase is a degrading enzyme to get rid of metabolites / toxins.Detailed explanation (you can bypass)
The CYP24A1 enzyme (24-hydroxylase) acts as the body’s internal thermostat for Vitamin D. Its primary biological role is to maintain homeostasis—ensuring that levels of the active hormone do not reach toxic or hypercalcemic levels.
Here is a breakdown of how this "off-switch" functions and why it matters for supplementation strategy.
- The Mechanism of Degradation
Vitamin D follows a specific activation pathway, but it also requires a clear exit strategy. CYP24A1 is the primary tool for that exit.
• Targeting the Active Form: The enzyme targets 1,25(OH)2D (calcitriol), the active form that binds to the Vitamin D Receptor (VDR).
• The Inactivation Process: It adds a hydroxyl group to the 24th carbon position of the molecule. This transforms the active hormone into calcitroic acid, a water-soluble metabolite that is inactive and easily excreted by the kidneys.
• Preemptive Action: CYP24A1 also targets 25(OH)D (the storage form), breaking it down before it can even be activated if the body senses an oversupply.
- Why it’s the "Off-Switch"
The term "off-switch" is used because CYP24A1 is inducible. Unlike some enzymes that run at a constant speed, the body "turns on" the production of 24-hydroxylase specifically when Vitamin D levels rise too high.
• Negative Feedback Loop: When 1,25(OH)2D binds to the VDR, it actually triggers the gene that produces CYP24A1. Essentially, the active hormone creates its own "assassin" to ensure it doesn't overstay its welcome.
• The Bolus Effect: Large, infrequent doses (e.g., 50,000 IU) create a massive spike in 1,25(OH)2D. This "scares" the system into a state of high CYP24A1 expression. The enzyme becomes so active that it can over-correct, degrading not just the excess, but the very D3 you are trying to utilize.
- CYP24A1 in the Kidneys and Beyond
While the kidneys are the major site for systemic regulation, this enzyme is present in almost every tissue that has a Vitamin D Receptor.
• Local Regulation: In tissues like the skin, colon, or immune cells, CYP24A1 acts as a local gatekeeper. It prevents the local concentration of Vitamin D from getting high enough to disrupt cellular mineral balance.
• Detoxification: By converting fat-soluble Vitamin D into water-soluble calcitroic acid, it allows the kidneys to flush the metabolites out through urine. Without this "off-switch," Vitamin D (being fat-soluble) would accumulate indefinitely, leading to calcification of soft tissues.
- Pragmatic Application
Understanding the "off-switch" supports the fractionation strategy.
Approach / CYP24A1 Response / Outcome
High Bolus / High Induction / Rapid degradation; potential
"crash" in active levels.
Daily Low Dose / Low/Stable Induction // Consistent VDR activation
without triggering the "off-switch" aggressively.
By keeping doses smaller and more frequent, you provide enough substrate to keep the VDR active without reaching the threshold that triggers a massive "cleanup" by 24-hydroxylase.
Summary
24-hydroxylase is the biochemical name for what that specific enzyme does.
• Its job is to attach a hydroxyl group (—OH) to the 24th carbon of the Vitamin D molecule.
• While there are many "hydroxylases" in the body (some put an —OH on the 1st carbon, some on the 25th), CYP24A1 is the primary enzyme designated as the "24-hydroxylase."
The Functional Hierarchy
If we were to map it out like a corporate structure:
• Division (Superfamily): Cytochrome P450 (The "Chemical Managers").
• Department (Family): CYP24 (The "Vitamin D Disposal Team").
• Employee (Specific Enzyme): CYP24A1 (The "24-hydroxylase" specialist).Why the Kidney context matters
As we often note it, Cytochrome P450 (Cyp450) is highly active in the kidneys, but its primary goal isn't just "general toxin removal" like some other CYP enzymes (like those in the liver that break down caffeine or ibuprofen). It is a precision tool specifically evolved to prevent Vitamin D toxicity.
When it acts as the "off-switch," it isn't just cleaning up; it is actively regulating your hormone levels to protect your kidneys from the calcium buildup (calcification) that would occur if Vitamin D levels remained unchecked.
End of the “detailed explanation.
X
Now back to the main question:
“What methods have you found to counteract VDR down regulation? Aside from the obvious things (take magnesium and K2).”*) Optimization: The D3 - A - K2 triangle
Applying a fractionation strategy (2 x 1000 IU D3) is excellent to avoid receptor saturation and degradation by 24-hydroxylase (the enzyme that "breaks down" excess vitamin D).
The Vitamin A/Vitamin D ratio: This is the sticking point in many protocols. Retinol and D3 share the same partner receptor, the RXR (Retinoid X Receptor). An excess of retinol (often via cod liver oil or isolated supplementation) can block the action of D3 on gene expression.
The synergy between K2, MK4, and MK7
Everybody won’t agree here. Particularly a labo that easily and cheaply makes MK7 (from fermented soy). Choosing 1 mg of MK4 is relevant for tissue health and osteocalcin activation, although its half-life is short. It complements vitamin D3 well to ensure that calcium (even at 600-800 mg) goes to the bone and not the arteries, which is crucial if you are increasing your absorption efficiency with vitamin D3.
Taking 5,000 IU of vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol) without an adequate supply of cofactors will, on the one hand, deplete some existing cofactors, and on the other hand, it could excite PTH (and move outside the optimal range of 0.4-3 mIU/L), thus impacting osteocalcin synthesis. Osteocalcin synthesis is activated by 1,25-vitamin D3, which binds to the vitamin D receptor on osteoblasts (bone remodeling).The strategy
The strategy of fractionation (e.g., 1,000 UI twice daily) is the most pragmatic way to keep VDR sensitivity high without "scaring" the body into upregulating the degradation enzymes, when not well metabolized.PTH and the "Paradox"
The mention of PTH (Parathyroid Hormone) is crucial.
Clarification: If Vitamin D3 is taken without enough Calcium or Magnesium, PTH can actually rise or stay high to pull calcium from the bones to satisfy the blood levels required by the increased D3 activity.
VDR Impact: Chronic high PTH can sometimes lead to a desensitization of the VDR response in certain tissues. Keeping PTH in the "sweet spot" (the text suggests 0.4–3 pmol/L or equivalent) ensures the VDR is responding to nutritional status rather than a "stress signal" from the parathyroid glands.*) MK4 vs. MK7: The Tissue-Specific Approach
My preference for MK4 (1 mg) is well-grounded for VDR-related gene expression.
The Nuance: While MK7 (from Natto) is better for maintaining stable blood levels due to its long half-life, MK4 is the form actually produced by animal tissues and is a potent ligand for the SXR (Steroid and Xenobiotic Receptor), which works alongside the VDR to manage bone mineralization. MK4 is also the preferred K2 of the brain (90%), probably because it’s less prone to oxidation.*) Potential downregulation by pathogens
Since Vit. D has an effective power in immune response, some phila / viruses are able to “clog” the receptor. In these cases, VDR "agonists" (like Resveratrol or Curcumin) are often used alongside D3.*) Remember 1
High D3 increases the demand for Calcium. If diet is low in Calcium, D3 can become "bone-catabolic" rather than "bone-anabolic." That’s why I target 800-850 mg Ca. never under 600 mg (if the acid-base balance is correct). No need to target 1100-1200 mg Ca.
I’ve set my “dead-lines” in cronometer.com for calcium at:- 600 mg minimum
- 1200 mg red level.
*) Remember 2
To understand the VDR (Vitamin D Receptor) as a "sensor" with a built-in "protection" mechanism, you have to look at it as a thermostat rather than a simple light switch. The body uses retro-feedback (negative feedback loops) to ensure that Vitamin D activity doesn't lead to toxic levels of calcium in the blood.If you want more details (you can bypass), here is an explanation (for fine tuning) (with help of Gemini3, to keep it clear).
- The VDR as a Metabolic Gatekeeper
The VDR is a nuclear receptor. When 1,25(OH)2D (the active form) binds to it, the VDR doesn't just turn on "good" genes (like bone building); it simultaneously turns on the genes for its own destruction.
• The Sensor Trigger: When the VDR senses high levels of active Vitamin D, it triggers the expression of the CYP24A1 enzyme (24-hydroxylase).
• The Protection (Retro-feedback): This enzyme immediately begins breaking down both the storage form and the active form of Vitamin D into inactive metabolites.
• Pragmatic Result: If you "flood" the sensor several times with a massive dose, the body perceives a "danger" signal and aggressively ramps up the breakdown process, which can actually leave you with less functional Vitamin D in the long run. - The Calcium-Sensing Receptor (CaSR) Link
The VDR doesn't work in a vacuum; it "talks" to the Calcium-Sensing Receptor (CaSR) in the parathyroid glands.
• The Interaction: When VDR is activated, it increases calcium absorption in the gut.
• The Feedback: As blood calcium rises, the CaSR senses this and shuts down the production of PTH (Parathyroid Hormone).
• The Protection: Since PTH is required to convert storage D (25(OH)D) into active D (1,25(OH)2D), dropping PTH levels acts as a "brake" on the system. This prevents the body from absorbing so much calcium that it would become toxic (hypercalcemia). - Receptor "Downregulation" vs. "Saturation"
When people speak of "VDR downregulation," they are often describing a state where the receptor becomes less responsive. This happens for two main reasons: - Saturation & Internalization: Just like insulin receptors in Type 2 Diabetes, if the VDR is constantly bombarded by high-peak doses, the cell may "hide" the receptors (internalization) to protect the DNA from over-stimulation.
- Cofactor Depletion: The VDR requires Magnesium to bind and RXR (Vitamin A) to "dock" onto the DNA. If these are missing, the sensor is "broken"—it’s like a thermostat with no battery. It might "sense" the heat, but it can't tell the furnace to turn off.
Summary of the "Sensor" Strategy
By taking smaller, fractionated doses (1,000 UI 2x/day), you are essentially "whispering / lightly tickling” the sensor. And so, you get:
No "Panic" Response: You stay below the threshold that triggers a massive spike in CYP24A1 (the breakdown enzyme).
Steady Signaling: You provide a consistent signal to the CaSR and PTH, allowing the metabolism to maintain a steady state of calcium transport without the "sawtooth" spikes of high-dose therapy that can lead to arterial calcification or receptor desensitization.*) Remember 3
There is interaction between liposoluble vitamins.
Vitamins E and K appear to share the same metabolic pathways because both undergo side chain ω- hydroxylation and b-oxidation to produce their respective metabolites (Dr. traber) do not take them at the same time if 400 UI vit E mix.Useful link:
How much fat do we need to absorb liposoluble vitamins? (In French)
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t1357-vitamines-liposolubles-et-matiere-grasse-ratio#15157
