Essential Fatty Acids (Omega-3 & Omega-6) are direct building blocks for the skin's lipid bilayers, reducing transepidermal water loss (TEWL).
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You aren't "determining anything". What would you recommend if an individual has the following symptoms of EFA deficiency? These symptoms are very much prevalent in common people with "normal feeding":
• Dermatological: Dry, scaly, or flaky skin (xerotic or eczematous dermatitis), periorificial dermatitis, and loss of skin elasticity.
• Hair and Nails: Hair loss (alopecia), brittle or dull hair, and weakened nails.
• Healing and Immunity: Poor wound healing and an increased risk of frequent infections due to a weakened immune system.
• Developmental (in Infants and Children): Growth delays, failure to thrive, and potential intellectual impairment.
• Other Signs: Thrombocytopenia (low blood platelet count), anemia, and fatigue or brain fog.Well, if I were to recommend something in such cases, I would stick with beneficial strategies that have robust evidence behind them. Things like increased gelatin and collagen consumption, glycine supplementation, biotin supplementation, red light therapy. In skin conditions, maybe topical application of things like coconut oil, shea butter, and urea creams. I certainly wouldn't recommend Omega 6 and Omega 3 fatty acids, as I believe those substances to be toxic at the levels currently consumed, and likely causal in such problems.
In my own experience, when I trialed a very low fat diet, the rough skin on my elbows and heels became the smoothest it has ever been. I was pleasantly surprised at this. The diet lasted for 2+ months, did feature a large amount of glycine and gelatin, and was done to keep PUFA as low as possible. I aimed for 20 g of fat or less per day, hit as low as 7 some days, and tried to ensure that that fat was as saturated as possible. For me, this really backed up what Ray Peat had long been saying about PUFA.
Feel free to dismiss every single EFA studies like this or "extreme cases".
Will do, considering they are indeed extreme cases, and certainly don't prove that Omega 6 and Omega 3 are essential in any case.
Even if I did it's better than you telling people to deprive themselves of nutrients they might need based on the study that is literal one human.
I'll say it again.... outside of a purified diet or outright starvation,, Omega 6 and Omega 3 are UNAVOIDABLE. The idea that Omega 6 and Omega 3 are somehow "essential" come out of the same lab and are based on a handful of mice studies.
You cite a study of massively obese patients not needing fat in the diet for prolonged period, which probably to your logic isn't an "extreme case". There's also a medical study Angus Barbieri who didn't eat for a year, does that apply to everyone?
It would apply to the majority of the population. In 2021, 150 Million adults in the US were considered overweight or obese, similar to the patients in the Kempner study. Back in 1950, when Kempner was doing his studies, the total US population was about 120 million. Also, in 2012, the number of patients on TPN was just below 44,000. So, if you think TPN studies are somehow relevant, than the Kempner diet study would have to be about 3400 times as relevant. So yes, I do think this study is far more applicable than the TPN studies. Several thousand times more relevant.
Where do you get the information on TPN? TPN is used to feed sick and even near-death people, there's almost no missing nutrients in TPN.
I'm sure researchers take calories into account in TPN studies.First of all, I took info on TPN direct from the studies you posted. But also, from some basic common sense. Since TPN is an IV infusion, we would know that the manufacturers aren't simply grinding up steak and potatoes and injecting it into peoples veins.
Second, there is always going to be plenty of missing nutrients, since all the nutrients of food aren't known. Even then, the levels of known nutrients are going to be a guess. TPN is absolutely lifesaving in situations where someone can't eat, but it's far from ideal.
As for calories, I posted the problem with calories in an earlier comment that came direct from a study you posted. The amount was very low for the patient, and it seemed like the researchers didn't take into account that the patient had a history of eating disorders and was recovering from surgery, both things which should have increased his caloric intake.
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Well, if I were to recommend something in such cases, I would stick with beneficial strategies that have robust evidence behind them. Things like increased gelatin and collagen consumption, glycine supplementation, biotin supplementation, red light therapy. In skin conditions, maybe topical application of things like coconut oil, shea butter, and urea creams. I certainly wouldn't recommend Omega 6 and Omega 3 fatty acids, as I believe those substances to be toxic at the levels currently consumed, and likely causal in such problems.
So, you're saying the listed symptoms from clinical studies of EFA deficiency aren't EFA deficiency symptoms, and that your proposed solutions of "beneficial strategies that have robust evidence" would fix those symptoms.
Will do, considering they are indeed extreme cases, and certainly don't prove that Omega 6 and Omega 3 are essential in any case.
Your anti-fat studies don't prove that fats aren't needed nor that when your need more fat or calories, monosaturated or saturated fat is preferred.
I'll say it again.... outside of a purified diet or outright starvation,, Omega 6 and Omega 3 are UNAVOIDABLE. The idea that Omega 6 and Omega 3 are somehow "essential" come out of the same lab and are based on a handful of mice studies.
You cited epidemiological study of a hundred year and still think "a handful of mice studies" is what we have?
First of all, I took info on TPN direct from the studies you posted. But also, from some basic common sense. Since TPN is an IV infusion, we would know that the manufacturers aren't simply grinding up steak and potatoes and injecting it into peoples veins.
Second, there is always going to be plenty of missing nutrients, since all the nutrients of food aren't known. Even then, the levels of known nutrients are going to be a guess. TPN is absolutely lifesaving in situations where someone can't eat, but it's far from ideal.Whoever deciding the nutrients in TPN is more knowledgeable than the person saying "grinding up steak and potatoes and injecting it into peoples veins".
The reason I'm citing TPN studies in the first place is to debunk Vitamins replacing fat requirement. -
So, you're saying the listed symptoms from clinical studies of EFA deficiency aren't EFA deficiency symptoms, and that your proposed solutions of "beneficial strategies that have robust evidence" would fix those symptoms.
The ONLY listed symptom of so called "EFA deficiency" is xerosis or rash, aka skin conditions. When those same skin conditions occur in people who have been eating somewhere between 10-40 grams of PUFA over decades, it's pretty clear that it's not only "EFA deficiency" that causes those problems.
Your anti-fat studies don't prove that fats aren't needed nor that when your need more fat or calories, monosaturated or saturated fat is preferred.
I agree that they don't prove that fat isn't needed. People who do low fat diets for an extended period of time frequently run into problems, the testimonials on the old RPF usually mentioned digestive issues that tended to occur after 6-12 month mark. Although I do think a very low fat diet can be used as an intervention type diet, lasting less than 6 months.
As for types of fats, well, high PUFA seed oils are a relatively recent thing. They all require industrial type processing. Outside of seed oils, the other commonly consumed fats are all more saturated, including animal fats, dairy fats, and coconut oil (which can be made without industrial manufacturing). The fact that dairy fats are highly saturated would be a strong suggestion that more saturated fats are to be preferred in the diet, as would the fact the saturated and monounsaturated fats are more stable at room temperature, and body temperature. And that they are easier to process in beta oxidation.
You cited epidemiological study of a hundred year and still think "a handful of mice studies" is what we have?
Not sure what study you are referring to, but I didn't post any studies showing that PUFA is preferred or essential. A handful of mice studies are the ONLY studies to back up the claim that Omega 6 and Omega 3 are in some way "essential," and those studies are not robust evidence.
Whoever deciding the nutrients in TPN is more knowledgeable than the person saying "grinding up steak and potatoes and injecting it into peoples veins".
Totally dishonest. My quote was "we would know that the manufacturers aren't simply grinding up steak and potatoes and injecting it into peoples veins."
Obviously, I was stating, with a bit of humor, that TPN is a purified diet.
The reason I'm citing TPN studies in the first place is to debunk Vitamins replacing fat requirement.
But it "debunks" nothing. Just because formulas have some B Vitamins doesn't mean they are adequate. Here's a quote from Ray Peat on this very issue-
"In 1933, Burr observed that his fat-deficient rats consumed oxygen at an extremely high rate, and even then, the thought didn't occur to him that other nutritional deficiencies might have been involved in the condition he described. Ordinarily, the need for vitamins and minerals corresponds to the rate at which calories are being burned, the metabolic rate. Burr recalled that the rats on the fat free diet drank more water, and he reasoned that the absence of linoleic or linolenic acid in their skin was allowing water vapor to escape at a high rate. He didn't explain why the saturated fats the rats were synthesizing from sugar didn't serve at least as well as a "vapor barrier"; they are more effective at water-proofing than unsaturated fats, because of their greater hydrophobicity."
https://raypeat.com/articles/articles/sugar-issues.shtml
So if someone on fat free TPN develops a higher metabolic rate, their requirement for vitamins and minerals would potentially be higher as well. Since TPN formulas are standardized, and likely based on the RDA, this could easily lead to deficiencies. Especially in those who suffered from some sort of digestive disorder and are recovering from surgery, which is very common among TPN patients. Those patients would likely have a very high need for all sorts of vitamins and minerals, far exceeding the RDA, and likely exceeding many TPN formulations.
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The ONLY listed symptom of so called "EFA deficiency" is xerosis or rash, aka skin conditions. When those same skin conditions occur in people who have been eating somewhere between 10-40 grams of PUFA over decades, it's pretty clear that it's not only "EFA deficiency" that causes those problems.
So, you're saying these aren't symptoms of EFA deficiency?
• Hair and Nails: Hair loss (alopecia), brittle or dull hair, and weakened nails.
• Healing and Immunity: Poor wound healing and an increased risk of frequent infections due to a weakened immune system.
• Developmental (in Infants and Children): Growth delays, failure to thrive, and potential intellectual impairment.
• Other Signs: Thrombocytopenia (low blood platelet count), anemia, and fatigue or brain fog. -
So, you're saying these aren't symptoms of EFA deficiency?
• Hair and Nails: Hair loss (alopecia), brittle or dull hair, and weakened nails.
• Healing and Immunity: Poor wound healing and an increased risk of frequent infections due to a weakened immune system.
• Developmental (in Infants and Children): Growth delays, failure to thrive, and potential intellectual impairment.
• Other Signs: Thrombocytopenia (low blood platelet count), anemia, and fatigue or brain fog.What experimental study or studies are the basis for these claims?
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