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    Why is the Ray Peat community so far right?

    The Junkyard
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    • fiesterF
      fiester @S.Holmes
      last edited by

      @S-Holmes

      iirc Preterists believe most if not all prophecy has already been fulfilled, basically disallowing any dual-fulfillment, and their eschatology is wacky and unbiblical. I would suggest everyone avoid this site.

      “The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly.” (Proverbs 20:30)

      S 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • lutteL
        lutte @Kvirion
        last edited by

        @Kvirion economists have not invented capitalism. biologists have not invented life.

        KvirionK 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
        • S
          S.Holmes @fiester
          last edited by S.Holmes

          @fiester said in Why is the Ray Peat community so far right?:

          @S-Holmes

          iirc Preterists believe most if not all prophecy has already been fulfilled, basically disallowing any dual-fulfillment, and their eschatology is wacky and unbiblical. I would suggest everyone avoid this site.

          I've observed that those who make these claims have never really done a deep study of eschatology and usually just go along with the Scofield crowd, whether they're aware of it or not. (I bet you didn't even skim the article.) It's also interesting that you don't think others can critically assess whether or not preterism is true, so you unwisely advise them to steer clear. If you have scholarly (IN CONTEXT) arguments to refute it I would like to hear them. I've been asking futurists for nearly 25 years for a thorough refutation. I'm STILL waiting.

          Every person we have studied this with were convinced, one the son of a Baptist minister, and ALL well versed in scripture. They were astonished and asked how we all could have missed something so obvious and hiding in plain sight for so many years. Futurism is the brainchild of the criminal and scoundrel Cyrus Scofield (and John Darby). The Zionist puppetmasters had/have deep pockets and hired Scofield to author the commentary which was then distributed far and wide, for FREE. Once people read it, and began watching the sky they lost interest in being good stewards, and leaving an inheritance (liberty or wealth) to their families. I mean why polish the brass on a sinking ship? We must reverse the lies told by Scofield.

          This is the truth I had been searching for. Let people make up their own minds.

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          • KvirionK
            Kvirion @lutte
            last edited by Kvirion

            @lutte said in Why is the Ray Peat community so far right?:

            economists have not invented capitalism. biologists have not invented life.

            DoubleFacepalm.jpg

            1. Your argument is a simple (ontological, epistemological) fallacy
            2. You mistook (weak, utopian) social science with natural science...
            3. You seem to not have any idea about philosophy, which is a necessary condition to discuss such topics...

            BTW If you don't know that something exists it does not mean it doesn't... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

            A little learning is a dangerous thing ;
            Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring :
            There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
            And drinking largely sobers us again.
            ~Alexander Pope, An Essay on Criticism

            Norwegian MugabeN lutteL 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
            • Norwegian MugabeN
              Norwegian Mugabe @Kvirion
              last edited by

              @Kvirion Point number two is enough to bury his argument. Men created capitalism, so it does not make sense to compare it with biological life forms, which were not made by man.

              Put yourself on fire for peak energy metabolism.

              Ignore, judge, overcommit.

              KvirionK 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • M
                Mulloch94
                last edited by

                Capitalism describes a system of ownership. So I would agree it should be differentiated from a simple commodity exchange, which is something even Marx himself took notice of. The fatal misconception in the left's argument is believing private ownership doesn't (or otherwise can't or never has) existed outside the scope of State decree and artificial scarcity. Ownership occurs at that precise moment when the natural environment has been transformed by the physical labor of another individual.

                And once this transformation has taken place, then the owner can exchange with another individual who has also transformed nature via physical labor to create property. Hence how the early free-market radicals viewed capitalism...a system of voluntary exchange. This is also why wealthy plutocrats originally feared the early libertarian radicals in the late 1960s, as this radical approach to property appropriation would make Big Business a thing of the past. Murray Rothbard's homestead principle paper entails the situation perfectly. It would basically be a proletariat takeover without the nationalization. Basically Rothbard took Marx's idea and upgraded it. Then the libertarian movement got corrupted in the 70s by the kochtopus and has essentially been seen as a pro-corporate movement ever since (except for another brief stent in the 90s when libertarians allied with right-wing populists). But typically speaking, true right-wingers are rarely free market supporters.

                When you drift far enough to the right, it's basically the same thing as the left. Fascism is Socialism with a side of nationalistic fervor. If you go ALL the way to the end of the right-wing spectrum, which is Eco-Fascism, then you arrive at "reactionary anti-capitalism." There also anti-human in general, but that's besides the point I guess. I suppose the point I am making is that Capitalism has not held a clear distinction of itself throughout the 700 years of it's existence. And from a historical analysis, a critique of Capitalism largely rests on the land grabs by English parliamentarians in the 16th century. Although modern leftists continually forget (or remain ignorant to) the State itself is what made those land grabs possible, and that forcing people into a wage-rent cash nexus is mutually exclusive to transforming labor into private property.

                CO3C KvirionK 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • CO3C
                  CO3 @Mulloch94
                  last edited by

                  @Mulloch94 said in Why is the Ray Peat community so far right?:

                  The fatal misconception in the left's argument is believing private ownership doesn't (or otherwise can't or never has) existed outside the scope of State decree and artificial scarcity.

                  @Mulloch94 said in Why is the Ray Peat community so far right?:

                  Ownership occurs at that precise moment

                  If there is a productive conversation to be had here, you have to absolutely try to be aware of the position you are trying to represent, and not just write about your impression of it!

                  Master Broth Recipe: https://twitter.com/thesquattingman/status/1737526599023526043 / https://recipeats.org/master-broth/

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                  • KvirionK
                    Kvirion @Norwegian Mugabe
                    last edited by

                    @Norwegian-Mugabe said in Why is the Ray Peat community so far right?:

                    Point number two is enough to bury his argument. Men created capitalism, so it does not make sense to compare it with biological life forms, which were not made by man.

                    Yeah, you're right I am often too generous (comprehensive) with my arguments...

                    I often forget that You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink...

                    A little learning is a dangerous thing ;
                    Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring :
                    There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
                    And drinking largely sobers us again.
                    ~Alexander Pope, An Essay on Criticism

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                    • KvirionK
                      Kvirion @Mulloch94
                      last edited by

                      @Mulloch94 I assume that the problem is more complex than a one-dimensional left-right axis...

                      PoliticalCompass.gif
                      This picture is a bare minimum to consider - to start comprehending that we have at least two dimensions to think about...

                      BTW the whole economics and practical thinking about economies need a serious upgrade with a multi-perspective approach... https://evonomics.com/new-ways-to-teach-economics/

                      A little learning is a dangerous thing ;
                      Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring :
                      There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
                      And drinking largely sobers us again.
                      ~Alexander Pope, An Essay on Criticism

                      M 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • lutteL
                        lutte @Kvirion
                        last edited by

                        @Kvirion
                        Economists have not invented capitalism. Thomas Edison has not invented electricity, or any other person. No biologist has invented life
                        The capitalists arose through capital, private property, which was made possible by feudal conditions, managed to overturn the feudal system and state (monopoly on violence) through a bourgeois revolution (aided by their own employees and serfs). Long before anyone knew what it would actually bring or how it would look like.
                        Tell me what is utopian about science? Or were you talking about some specific tradition of social science you are discontent with?
                        Not only do we need to reassess science, history every time because of recent relevations or understandings, but also because life, everything is constant flux. Even physical laws.

                        "The scientists of empire are announcing the end of
                        science and art, and of all cultural progress. Their argument
                        is simple: The knowable world is finite, and our knowledge
                        of it grows at an increasing rate. The end must come soon.
                        Some of them say that physics and chemistry are already
                        finished, and that biology will be completed when a few
                        puzzles are solved in genetics--and the general form of
                        these solutions is already known.
                        For German idealists--like Hegel or Hitler--"our
                        world, our own time" tends to be seen as "the last stage in
                        History." The Golden Age, or the 1000 year Reich, is
                        always just now arriving. At the end of the last century,
                        many physicists were certain that their science was
                        complete, except for a few details.
                        Idealists see "pure knowledge" as the source of
                        technology, and so technology must come to an end too, a
                        little later than science.
                        Materialists are more likely to see our time as being
                        near the beginning, not the end. For example, Marx (who
                        borrowed so much from Hegel) said that "real history" couldn't
                        begin until capitalism has been overcome.
                        I think this observation is more tautology than
                        perception. The term "materialism" describes the attitude
                        that likes to begin with "the matter at hand," "idealism"
                        describes an approach that emphasizes the importance of
                        established ideas. One's place in the world obviously
                        influences judgments as to where truth and value can be
                        found.
                        Ever since Heraclitus, materialists have emphasized
                        change, while idealists emphasize stasis. "Pure knowledge" is
                        a source of technology, but technology is also a basis for the
                        development of new formalized knowledge. The steam engine
                        was already in common use when Carnot and Joule formulated
                        its basic theory.
                        What the idealists are saying is that their science is
                        nearly complete, and there is no other science. What they
                        imply is that there can never be technologies which conflict
                        with their laws. In the Golden Age, science must achieve
                        certainly, otherwise it wouldn't be perfect. Hegel's version of
                        this was: "...the laws of real Freedom--demand the
                        subjugation of mere contingent Will."
                        German idealism has been influential in western
                        science for most of the 20th century, but now scientists in
                        capitalist countries are letting it guide them into cultural
                        fascism."

                        "Several years ago, in the quarterly publication Social
                        Sciences, I noticed an article by a man whose specialty was
                        exploring the future of work; he projected a future in which a
                        person's desire for growth and exploration is realized in his
                        work. This person's job was to clarifY the changes that must
                        be made in the "economy" so that it will serve humanity--the
                        workers and consumers--instead of vice versa.
                        Previously, in Mind and Tissue, I had briefly discussed
                        some Soviet views on labor: That work tends toward perception, as machines become available; politics, work, culture,
                        and science interpenetrate; brain function, education. science,
                        and work have much in common--an emphasis on purpose
                        and goals, deep reorganization, and complex perceptual interaction with the material. P. K. Anokhin and A. A. Ukhtomskii, and their students have created a sound basis for the role
                        of goals and future thinking.
                        The attitude toward the future is an important part of how
                        we orient ourselves and what concrete things we do to prepare for the future. A mechanistic view argues that we can't
                        intervene to change the future, that it must fundamentally resemble the past, and that if people just invest in things that
                        promise to give them a good profit the future will be nice.
                        Another view sees the future as being composed of choices
                        which lead to new choices, with new possibilities emerging as
                        choices are put into action.

                        It's important that people start talking about the possible
                        choices we have. If we accept that "the choice" is between
                        being unemployed and having a job, the job we get is not likely to be what we want to do with our lives. And "status" isn't
                        what I'm talking about. Giving maximum meaning to our
                        lives should be one of the basic things that we demand of our
                        work.
                        I. To start with concrete and familiar things, we might first
                        want to discuss what work is, and why-wunder capitalism, and
                        also under fascism, primitive cultures, and socialism. The issue of specialization could be considered here.
                        2. This might be followed by considering what work could
                        become, and how. The nature of history, time, and culture
                        should be considered, as well as the projections that are made
                        by different groups.
                        3. And at some point, I think it is important to consider
                        how work shapes us, how we are our work, and why it defines what we can be. Cultural, intellectual, and biological influences should be considered.
                        There are some things I want to quote, because they suggest some of the things that work is, what it does to us, and
                        what it should be.
                        About 1790, William Blake wrote the poem "London," which begins

                        "I wander thro' each charter'd street,
                        Near where the charter'd Thames does flow,
                        And mark in every face I meet
                        Marks of weakness, markd of woe .
                        . . . the mind-forg'd manacles I hear."

                        Another poem, "The Human Abstract," begins
                        "Pity would be no more
                        If we did not make somebody Poor .. . . "

                        Repeatedly, Blake tried to define the mechanisms of oppression and limitation of the human personality. He observed that the State chartered corporations, licensed
                        that it used false science, devious moralizing and religion, and
                        illiteracy to create a culture of obedient drudgery. Commercial interests, he pointed out, distorted and degraded human
                        life, art, and science.
                        "Schoolmaster of souls, great opposer of change,
                        arise'! O how could'st thou deform those beautiful
                        proportions Of life & person; for as the person, so
                        is his life proportion'd. "
                        "Thy self-destroying, beast form'd Science shall be
                        thy eternal lot. "

                        Blake referred to factories as the "Satanic Mills," whose
                        technology was invented
                        "To perplex youth. .. & to bind to labours Of day
                        & night . . . that they might file and polish. . . hour
                        after hour, laborious workmanship, Kept ignorant
                        of the use that they might spend the days of wisdom
                        In sorrowfull drudgery to obtain a scanty pittance
                        of bread. In ignorance to view a small portion &
                        think that All. And call it demonstration, blind to
                        all the simple rules of life. "

                        Several people in the following century were influenced by
                        Blake's attitudes and perceptions, but most of them wanted to
                        retreat to a simpler past, rather than (as Blake desired) to advance into a more generous future.

                        "And when all Tyranny was cut off from the face
                        of the earth living flames winged with intellect and
                        Reason, round the Earth they march in order, flame
                        by flame. . . . Start forth the trembling millions into
                        flames of mental fire . .. "Why sit I here & give lip
                        all my powers to indolence . .. ?

                        [...]

                        People like Blake, Higgins, and Marx have realized that
                        there are different ways of being, that one is fragmented and
                        diminished, and the other is whole, alive, and growing. When
                        people feel that they are in possession of their own lives, then
                        problems become opportunities. Each problem leads to new
                        problems. The world draws us forward, and we are not defined by an "occupation" or "profession," but by the work we
                        have achieved, and the problems we have confronted."

                        • Ray Peat

                        "The policy of some nations has given extraordinary
                        encouragement to the industry of the country; that of others to the
                        industry of towns. Scarce any nation has dealt equally and
                        impartially with every sort of industry. Since the downfall of the
                        Roman empire, the policy of Europe has been more favourable to
                        arts, manufactures, and commerce, the industry of towns, than to
                        agriculture, the industry of the country. The circumstances which
                        seem to have introduced and established this policy are explained
                        in the third book.
                        Though those different plans were, perhaps, first introduced by
                        the private interests and prejudices of particular orders of men,
                        without any regard to, or foresight of, their consequences upon the
                        general welfare of the society; yet they have given occasion to very
                        different theories of political economy; of which some magnify the
                        importance of that industry which is carried on in towns, others of
                        that which is carried on in the country. Those theories have had a
                        considerable influence, not only upon the opinions of men of
                        learning, but upon the public conduct of princes and sovereign
                        states. I have endeavoured, in the fourth book, to explain, as fully
                        and distinctly as I can, those different theories, and the principal
                        effects which they have produced in different ages and nations."
                        ...
                        "According to the natural course of things, therefore, the
                        greater part of the capital of every growing society is, first,
                        directed to agriculture, afterwards to manufactures, and last of all
                        to foreign commerce. This order of things is so very natural that in
                        every society that had any territory it has always, I believe, been in
                        some degree observed. Some of their lands must have been
                        cultivated before any considerable towns could be established, and
                        some sort of coarse industry of the manufacturing kind must have
                        been carried on in those towns, before they could well think of
                        employing themselves in foreign commerce.
                        But though this natural order of things must have taken place
                        in some degree in every such society, it has, in all the modern
                        states of Europe, been, in many respects, entirely inverted. The
                        foreign commerce of some of their cities has introduced all their
                        finer manufactures, or such as were fit for distant sale; and
                        manufactures and foreign commerce together have given birth to
                        the principal improvements of agriculture. The manners and
                        customs which the nature of their original government introduced,
                        and which remained after that government was greatly altered,
                        necessarily forced them into this unnatural and retrograde order."

                        "When the German and Scythian nations overran the
                        western provinces of the Roman empire, the confusions
                        which followed so great a revolution lasted for several
                        centuries. The rapine and violence which the barbarians exercised
                        against the ancient inhabitants interrupted the commerce
                        between the towns and the country. The towns were deserted, and
                        the country was left uncultivated, and the western provinces of
                        Europe, which had enjoyed a considerable degree of opulence
                        under the Roman empire, sunk into the lowest state of poverty
                        and barbarism. During the continuance of those confusions, the
                        chiefs and principal leaders of those nations acquired or usurped
                        to themselves the greater part of the lands of those countries. A
                        great part of them was uncultivated; but no part of them, whether
                        cultivated or uncultivated, was left without a proprietor. All of
                        them were engrossed, and the greater part by a few great
                        proprietors.
                        This original engrossing of uncultivated lands, though a great,
                        might have been but a transitory evil. They might soon have been
                        divided again, and broke into small parcels either by succession or
                        by alienation. The law of primogeniture hindered them from being
                        divided by succession: the introduction of entails prevented their
                        being broke into small parcels by alienation."

                        "Laws frequently continue in force long after the circumstances
                        which first gave occasion to them, and which could alone render
                        them reasonable, are no more. In the present state of Europe, the
                        proprietor of a single acre of land is as perfectly secure of his
                        possession as the proprietor of a hundred thousand. The right of
                        primogeniture, however, still continues to be respected, and as of
                        all institutions it is the fittest to support the pride of family
                        distinctions, it is still likely to endure for many centuries. In every
                        other respect, nothing can be more contrary to the real interest of
                        a numerous family than a right which, in order to enrich one,
                        beggars all the rest of the children."

                        "To the slave cultivators of ancient times gradually succeeded a
                        species of farmers known at present in France by the name of
                        metayers. They are called in Latin, Coloni partiarii. They have
                        been so long in disuse in England that at present I know no
                        English name for them. The proprietor furnished them with the
                        seed, cattle, and instruments of husbandry, the whole stock, in
                        short, necessary for cultivating the farm. The produce was divided
                        equally between the proprietor and the farmer, after setting aside
                        what was judged necessary for keeping up the stock, which was
                        restored to the proprietor when the farmer either quitted, or was
                        turned out of the farm.
                        Land occupied by such tenants is properly cultivated at the
                        expense of the proprietor as much as that occupied by slaves.
                        There is, however, one very essential difference between them.
                        Such tenants, being freemen, are capable of acquiring property,
                        and having a certain proportion of the produce of the land, they
                        have a plain interest that the whole produce should be as great as
                        possible, in order that their own proportion may be so. A slave, on
                        the contrary, who can acquire nothing but his maintenance,
                        consults his own ease by making the land produce as little as
                        possible over and above that maintenance."

                        "To this species of tenancy succeeded, though by very slow
                        degrees, farmers properly so called, who cultivated the land with
                        their own stock, paying a rent certain to the landlord. When such
                        farmers have a lease for a term of years, they may sometimes find
                        it for their interest to lay out part of their capital in the further
                        improvement of the farm; because they may sometimes expect to
                        recover it, with a large profit, before the expiration of the lease."

                        "After the fall of the Roman empire, on the
                        contrary, the proprietors of land seem generally to have lived in
                        fortified castles on their own estates, and in the midst of their own
                        tenants and dependants. The towns were chiefly inhabited by
                        tradesmen and mechanics, who seem in those days to have been of
                        servile, or very nearly of servile condition. The privileges which we
                        find granted by ancient charters to the inhabitants of some of the
                        principal towns in Europe sufficiently show what they were before
                        those grants. The people to whom it is granted as a privilege that
                        they might give away their own daughters in marriage without the
                        consent of their lord, that upon their death their own children, and
                        not their lord, should succeed to their goods, and that they might
                        dispose of their own effects by will, must, before those grants, have
                        been either altogether or very nearly in the same state of villanage
                        with the occupiers of land in the country."

                        "But how servile soever may have been originally the condition
                        of the inhabitants of the towns, it appears evidently that they
                        arrived at liberty and independency much earlier than the
                        occupiers of land in the country. That part of the king’s revenue
                        which arose from such poll-taxes in any particular town used
                        commonly to be let in farm during a term of years for a rent
                        certain, sometimes to the sheriff of the county, and sometimes to
                        other persons. The burghers themselves frequently got credit
                        enough to be admitted to farm the revenues of this sort which
                        arose out of their own town, they becoming jointly and severally
                        answerable for the whole rent.
                        To let a farm in this manner was
                        quite agreeable to the usual economy of, I believe, the sovereigns
                        of all the different countries of Europe, who used frequently to let
                        whole manors to all the tenants of those manors, they becoming
                        jointly and severally answerable for the whole rent; but in return
                        being allowed to collect it in their own way, and to pay it into the
                        king’s exchequer by the hands of their own bailiff, and being thus
                        altogether freed from the insolence of the king’s officers—a
                        circumstance in those days regarded as of the greatest
                        importance."

                        "The lords despised the burghers, whom they considered not
                        only as of a different order, but as a parcel of emancipated slaves,
                        almost of a different species from themselves. The wealth of the
                        burghers never failed to provoke their envy and indignation, and
                        they plundered them upon every occasion without mercy or
                        remorse. The burghers naturally hated and feared the lords. The
                        king hated and feared them too; but though perhaps he might
                        despise, he had no reason either to hate or fear the burghers.
                        Mutual interest, therefore, disposed them to support the king, and
                        the king to support them against the lords. They were the enemies
                        of his enemies, and it was his interest to render them as secure
                        and independent of those enemies as he could. By granting them
                        magistrates of their own, the privilege of making bye-laws for their
                        own government, that of building walls for their own defence, and
                        that of reducing all their inhabitants under a sort of military
                        discipline, he gave them all the means of security and
                        independency of the barons which it was in his power to bestow."

                        "Without the establishment of some regular government of this
                        kind, without some authority to compel their inhabitants to act
                        according to some certain plan or system, no voluntary league of
                        mutual defence could either have afforded them any permanent
                        security, or have enabled them to give the king any considerable
                        support. By granting them the farm of their town in fee, he took
                        away from those whom he wished to have for his friends, and, if
                        one may say so, for his allies, all ground of jealousy and suspicion
                        that he was ever afterwards to oppress them, either by raising the
                        farm rent of their town or by granting it to some other farmer."

                        "The militia of the cities seems, in those times, not to have been
                        inferior to that of the country, and as they could be more readily
                        assembled upon any sudden occasion, they frequently had the
                        advantage in their disputes with the neighbouring lords. In
                        countries, such as Italy and Switzerland, in which, on account
                        either of their distance from the principal seat of government, of
                        the natural strength of the country itself, or of some other reason,
                        the sovereign came to lose the whole of his authority, the cities
                        generally became independent republics, and conquered all the
                        nobility in their neighbourhood, obliging them to pull down their
                        castles in the country and to live, like other peaceable inhabitants,
                        in the city. This is the short history of the republic of Berne as well
                        as of several other cities in Switzerland. If you except Venice, for
                        of that city the history is somewhat different, it is the history of all
                        the considerable Italian republics, of which so great a number
                        arose and perished between the end of the twelfth and the
                        beginning of the sixteenth century."

                        " Order and good government, and along with them the liberty
                        and security of individuals, were, in this manner, established in
                        cities at a time when the occupiers of land in the country were
                        exposed to every sort of violence. But men in this defenceless state
                        naturally content themselves with their necessary subsistence,
                        because to acquire more might only tempt the injustice of their
                        oppressors. On the contrary, when they are secure of enjoying the
                        fruits of their industry, they naturally exert it to better their
                        condition, and to acquire not only the necessaries, but the
                        conveniences and elegancies of life. That industry, therefore,
                        which aims at something more than necessary subsistence, was
                        established in cities long before it was commonly practised by the
                        occupiers of land in the country. If in the hands of a poor
                        cultivator, oppressed with the servitude of villanage, some little
                        stock should accumulate, he would naturally conceal it with great
                        care from his master, to whom it would otherwise have belonged,
                        and take the first opportunity of running away to a town. The law
                        was at that time so indulgent to the inhabitants of towns, and so
                        desirous of diminishing the authority of the lords over those of the
                        country, that if he could conceal himself there from the pursuit of
                        his lord for a year, he was free for ever. Whatever stock, therefore,
                        accumulated in the hands of the industrious part of the
                        inhabitants of the country naturally took refuge in cities as the
                        only sanctuaries in which it could be secure to the person that
                        acquired it."
                        -Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations

                        KvirionK 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • lutteL
                          lutte
                          last edited by

                          butchered formatting

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                          • M
                            Mulloch94 @Kvirion
                            last edited by

                            @Kvirion said in Why is the Ray Peat community so far right?:

                            I assume that the problem is more complex than a one-dimensional left-right axis.

                            It certainly is. In fact, I've increasingly been developing a new opinion that the left-right axis means essentially nothing in today's sociopolitical culture. The waters become even more muddy when you throw political parties in the ring too. As meaningless as the left-right axis is, democrats and republicans are even more meaningless. For example, all American democrats are right-wingers. More or less. Take all their social culture BS out of the equation for a second, because being a leftist has nothing to do with any of that. Do democrats support labor or do they support capital? The answer is definitively the latter. Republicans, also right-wingers, but far more radicalized in the sense they have a strong push toward national independence, which is naturally at odds with the establishments quest to further the globalization of capital.

                            Naturally MAGA bros lack the "intellectual refinement" that their Occupy Wall Street predecessors had in the early 2000s. But that's too be expected, the OWS movement was mostly anarchists, smart ones too, like David Graeber. As much as I disagree with Graeber's economics, he understood power dynamics very well. The MAGA movement doesn't understand power dynamics well, but they do recognize corruption and know how to point at it, lol. The big difference is anarchists did it in the 2000s out of loyalty to labour. MAGA's anti-globalism is out of loyalty to the nation-state. In this light, we could see the democrats as being a party slightly more capitalistic than even the republicans. America doesn't really have a left-wing option. And since America doesn't recognize absolute property rights, they don't have a libertarian option either.

                            So this two headed axis is very useless in my opinion. We're not even getting into all these little micro nuances either. Like urban liberals vs rustic blues. As soon as you get out of any major Big City shit-hole, most people, even democrats, own guns. Likewise, I've seen examples of traditionally very conservative practices like church becoming woke for LGBTQ or other groups in the inner cities. What were seeing here, in my opinion, is that environment is superseding anything people believe politically. And I think this is where bioenergetics slips into the equation. Might also be why someone like Ray Peat was never really pinned down by a particular political ideology. There's this old saying that "culture is upstream from politics." If that's true, and by all accounts it is, then bioenergetics is the source.

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                            • VehmicJurymanV
                              VehmicJuryman @CO3
                              last edited by

                              @CO3 said in Why is the Ray Peat community so far right?:

                              @VehmicJuryman
                              Incredible the way in which you slander Christ, saying he and his flock were dependent on welfare from the rich. You are already implying it here; you pharisees would be the first to judge such a way of living where property was shared. Disgusting.

                              You are more of an opponent to his ideas than maybe anyone else, because you fake your allegiance to him and even use it to justify the satanic order of things in the world.

                              The point is the mask you call your 'religious' views are downstream of your covetousness. You proved it in this thread but are too blind to see it.

                              Exposing your ignorance as usual.

                              Luke 8: "1 Soon afterward, Jesus began going around from one city and village to another, proclaiming and preaching the kingdom of God. The twelve were with Him, 2 and also some women who had been healed of evil spirits and sicknesses: Mary who was called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out, 3 and Joanna the wife of Chuza, Herod’s steward, and Susanna, and many others who were contributing to their support out of their private means."

                              Other wealthy benefactors of Jesus mentioned in the Gospel include Joseph of Arimathea and Mary of Bethany.

                              There is genuinely no ideology more antithetical to Christianity than Marxism. No ideology has ever harmed as many people or sent as many people to hell. It is an ideology of pure hatred, envy, resentment, atheism, and murder. Nobody has killed more Christians than Marxists.

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                              • VehmicJurymanV
                                VehmicJuryman @CO3
                                last edited by VehmicJuryman

                                @CO3 I'm aware that Marxists have quoted the Bible out of context to support their hateful ideology. Satan quotes the Bible too. Btw, you're quoting Acts which happened after Christ left earth so claiming Christ lived the same way is speculative at best. It's also very different from Marxism - Marx didn't believe in voluntarily forming communities that shared property, he believed in mass murdering and terrorizing everyone in society who owned property.

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                                • CO3C
                                  CO3 @VehmicJuryman
                                  last edited by CO3

                                  @VehmicJuryman You clearly did not know. Now the rats are fleeing the ship truly, slandering not only Christ but 'their' apostles too. The disloyalty is disgusting! No wonder Nazis were and are so partial to neo-paganism. Not one single principle between all of the people that come into this thread to make a fool of themselves.

                                  Master Broth Recipe: https://twitter.com/thesquattingman/status/1737526599023526043 / https://recipeats.org/master-broth/

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                                  • CO3C
                                    CO3 @CO3
                                    last edited by

                                    Guys, I'm only gonna do this one time because at this point someone with brains has to help you guys; how about - in this topic you guys shifted to because you were having trouble arguing what was at hand - maybe bring up that the USSR was an atheist nation and repressed organized religion with an iron fist instead of bringing up 'we who shall not work shall not eat' and 'unto every man according to what he needs'. Think!

                                    Master Broth Recipe: https://twitter.com/thesquattingman/status/1737526599023526043 / https://recipeats.org/master-broth/

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                                    • ?
                                      A Former User
                                      last edited by A Former User

                                      I found a wonderful explanation of the difference between the so called Left and the Right which explains why this Ray Peat community is so far right!

                                      This is from a recent Tucker Carlson interview of Jake Logan, a trucker who hauls hazardous materials:
                                      Tucker [00:27:41] Well, yeah, because you keep the country alive. I wonder you really get the sense. And maybe the sentence that you just told us about in Colorado was an example of that. But the people who run things in Washington and New York and LA don't like you. They don't like the way you look. They don't like your race. They don't like your gender. They don't like your attitudes. Why the hostility? What do you think you ever did to them?

                                      Jake Logan [00:28:08] I think that they, this is just my personal opinion, but I believe that liberals are required to be lockstep with whatever directive comes down from on high. Yeah. From the left. Now conservatives. This is one thing that I love about being conservative, because we don't have to agree with our leaders, and we don't even have to agree with each other. Liberals are required to be lockstep with everything the left says, or they will suffer the consequences. I don't understand why, but that's just the way it is. Conservatives we have, we can think for ourselves. I am a huge Trump supporter. You know, dyed in the wool Trump supporter. I don't always agree with President Trump, but I tell you what, I have never seen a fighter as strong as President Trump. And I am happy to cast my ballot for that man this coming November.
                                      -end paste-
                                      Consider the difference between this forum and the all new and definitely not better RayPeatForum.com and you'll get it.

                                      CO3C M 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                      • CO3C
                                        CO3 @A Former User
                                        last edited by

                                        woahhhhh ... i 'm gonna have to think about things.

                                        Master Broth Recipe: https://twitter.com/thesquattingman/status/1737526599023526043 / https://recipeats.org/master-broth/

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                                        • M
                                          Mulloch94 @A Former User
                                          last edited by

                                          @mostlylurking Ehhhh...I think conservatives are more opened to discourse of opinion on wedge issues, but when it comes to the bare essentials they're just as lockstep as the liberals are. The republican party is basically the cult of Trump. Look at what happens whenever those "Never Trumpers" try to shill for a new candidate....they get crushed, lol. The red wave is a Trump wave. And once Trump leaves politics for good, the conservative party will go back to being just as lame as ever with dinosaur establishment shills like Mitt Romney and Jeb Bush.

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                                          • VehmicJurymanV
                                            VehmicJuryman @CO3
                                            last edited by

                                            @CO3 "You clearly did not know." Based on what?

                                            This is an embarrassingly feeble line of argument, frankly. I have in fact already pointed out that the USSR was an atheistic murderous regime that viciously hated Christianity, as you've now acknowledged. You're the only one who keeps harping on the fact that marxists misuse Bible verses. This doesn't disprove that marxism is antithetical to Christianity. If you want proof of that, here are some more Bible verses for you:

                                            "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind."
                                            "You shall not murder."
                                            "You shall not steal."

                                            All moral precepts that marxists delight in breaking, which contradict the very heart of marxist thought.

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