Glucose loading cures everything?
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Hi all, I'm back to share an update. I do not have any definitive explanation for what happened, but...
As I mentioned 2 or 3 weeks ago, I had been on the dextrose protocol for approximately 5 weeks (was at 5 tbsp 3x a day... so in the ballpark of 600 calories a day of dextrose). I went off of it cold turkey.
I went off it because I was going to be doing some traveling, and I didn't want to be a bother to my in-laws or family members I'd be staying with, bringing in large amounts of white powder to their kitchens. I'm doing it more experimentally as opposed to having major symptoms I'm looking to resolve anyway, so I thought it would be a good chance to ensure I wasn't developing a dependency on dextrose.
We left on a Friday, and I quit dextrose cold turkey 2 or 3 days before that (so Tuesday or Wednesday). Nothing notable to report. But then that Sunday night, I started getting pink eye and got sick generally. I stayed sick for several days while the eye discharge ran its course; symptoms were feeling cold, feverish, sore throat, tired, weak, stuffy, coughy, phlegmy. (Fortunately I was feeling much better to the point that we were able to attend an event the following Saturday and have a great time and my eyes were doing better by then-- so it's not that it was debilitating.) Almost two weeks after the initial pinkeye symptom, I still don't feel quite 100% (but by now I am very very close).
Anyway, it's the longest bout of illness I've had in years. Nothing too horrible, just the normal "sick" stuff, the body cleaning gunk out. Others in the house were also under the weather a bit (I seemed to fare worse than the others in the house).
I have no idea if the dextrose had any role in it, but it was interesting and I thought I'd log it here.
Long story short: Stopped dextrose therapy on a Wednesday, felt fine for a few days. Then got sick Sunday night and stayed that way for a while, a little sicker a little longer than typical for me. But I could theorize 1000 reasons for why it happened, and I have no clue if it had anything at all to do with dextrose. Back home now, I'll probably restart dextrose protocol in a few days.
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@jjk_learning Thank you for the update! Please do keep us posted!
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@S-Holmes Will do. I restarted on dextrose yesterday (after being home and getting back to feeling good): 5 tbsp 3 times. No miracles nor setbacks to report but it still tastes good to me!
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@jjk_learning I've stalled out at 4, maybe 4.5 Tbsps, 4 times a day, and holding. Nausea and headaches have been an on and off issue for many years. The glucose is making these worse, but once I get past the nausea (and heartburn) I'll start ramping up again. It's good to understand that healing isn't always easy. Inflammation is an important part, but woe unto those of us who inflame in nerve-rich areas. It isn't easy!
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@jjk_learning In other news, my mental/emotional status is still good. And my husband (also doing glucose) seems to be way less grumpy. Maybe there really is something to that "Eat a Snickers Marsha!" ad.
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@S-Holmes Ha! That made me snicker
Glad to hear that your mental/emotional status is good and that your husband is seeming happier. Sorry to hear about the worsening nausea, headaches, and heartburn though.
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The homeopathic protocol I'm using (along with glucose) for Epstein-Barr and fibromyalgia: Rhus tox 30C + Bryonia alba 200C twice daily. (Must be taken "mixed" together.) Take Hypericum perforatum 200C twice daily if pain is severe. Take apart from the other remedies. You might experience a temporary worsening of symptoms as inflammation/healing begins. If these don't seem to help after a few weeks, discontinue and seek a professional consultant, preferably one familiar with Homeopathic Facial Analysis or the Banerji protocols.
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@jjk_learning said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
@S-Holmes Ha! That made me snicker
Glad to hear that your mental/emotional status is good and that your husband is seeming happier. Sorry to hear about the worsening nausea, headaches, and heartburn though.
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@CrumblingCookie said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
The organic dextrose comes in large, white, PP plastic containers and at the first (and every ensuing) opening of that container I was taken aback by a distinct plasticky smell. Luckily, however, no matter how hard I try I cannot sense that plasticky smell from the dextrose powder once I've taken it out of that container. So that's good.
Taste-wise, this particular organic dextrose seemed even "softer" than regular dextrose but I'm not very sure about this and whether that's a good (extra pure?) or a bad (solvents?) sign.
I will work/drink my way through it and report back.Update on the dextrose powder quality:
I'm coming close to having 20kgs of dextrose consumed.
A few days ago I had used up the organic dextrose (large PP container) and so changed back to the dextrose bought at the supermarket (in small cardboard boxes, baking section).
The latter immediately tasted revolting to me. Urgh. I taste a hint of soapiness in it, too. Certainly a bit more nausea from it. And again it felt much harsher against my teeth (sucrose residues?) than the other powder.I immediately ordered the big container again. In the meantime, I've neverthelesse been using the supermarket dextrose and I somewhat re-accustomed myself with it but it remains unpleasant.
I suppose the key take-away from this is to source and try different dextrose powders. Organic may be preferable to conventional. And what comes in plastic containers may be preferable to what comes in cardboard.
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@CrumblingCookie I agree with you. I also bought a 50 lb bag of dextrose. It tasted terrible and wouldn't dissolve well. I'm back to paying a little more for better quality.
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I've been reading more about the itaconate shunt process. The research seems to indicate that after an illness (or trauma) the body forgets how to process carbs and fat for fuel, and INSTEAD uses protein as back up. HOWEVER, the use of protein for fuel can cause excessive ammonia levels in some which will lead to a whole host of other problems. If glucose can bypass the itaconate shunt process that would explain why glucose therapy works. Of course aging would contribute to this pathology because illness and trauma are compounded through the years.
While on glucose I have been craving protein and eating more protein has made me feel worse. So I've just started supplementing to lower ammonia: homeopathic Ammonium mur or Ammonium carb, myrrh resin, ornithine, chanca piedra (to cleanse liver and kidneys).
Will report back.
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If you want to dig deeper into how to lower ammonia this may be helpful. Using Nathan's suggestions we eradicated our gut issues so we're now back on his protocol (along with glucose therapy.)
(Apologies for language)
https://www.fuckportioncontrol.com/blog/2019/1/21/the-probable-cause-ofnbspautism -
I've been reading more about the itaconate shunt process. The research seems to indicate that after an illness (or trauma) the body forgets how to process carbs and fat for fuel, and INSTEAD uses protein as back up. HOWEVER, the use of protein for fuel can cause excessive ammonia levels in some which will lead to a whole host of other problems. If glucose can bypass the itaconate shunt process that would explain why glucose therapy works.
I'm not sure I would word it that way; the Itaconate shunt is activated not because the body forgets, rather it's a part of the immune system and is meant to not be activated after a few days, but it becomes chronic in some people. This is what Rob Phair is saying in the video I posted. (I see someone mentioned oxygen at some point, and I didn't have time to respond; the Itaconate shunt could lead to that as well.)
The ammonia is a byproduct from the GABA shunt. (Phair talks about the GABA shunt around 40 minutes.) From what I understand the GABA shunt only happens because the Krebs cycle isn't creating enough ATP, when the Itaconate shunt is activated.
Meaning ammonia shouldn't be an issue if the Itaconate shunt isn't activated to begin with, and it likely is activated (way) less when you're taking glucose.
Your body might have ammonia to process from earlier I suppose? But I don't think it's something one would have to focus on, because the most important thing for that processing to take place in the liver is a more functional Krebs cycle. Think of more ATP as more fuel for the motorbike, whereas anything homoeopathic or otherwise for ammonia is a support wheel.
That's not to say a support wheel isn't nice to put on the bike, as the motor starts working better! I've had moments of such severe Itaconate Shunt (I assume) that I smelled a little bit of ammonia. When I have I've used cinnamon, which someone (I think Georgi) recommended on the RP forum.
In regards to the craving for protein: Neurotransmitters are made from amino acids (protein, but is instead used in the GABA shunt when necessary. When the body no longer use the neurotransmitters for the GABA shunt, it can start up "normal" neurotransmitters production again.
Could it be that your body is ready to produce more neurotransmitters and need amino acids for that?
I've explored what to eat, and I've felt a little bit off emotionally. Reading your experience of craving protein made me realize I ended up having less protein for a couple of weeks, and I wonder if that's made me a little bit deficient. I wouldn't be surprised if we're at higher risk of some imbalances, as the body is healing. Back on my "normal" was of eating today, and it's feels good.
I've used a continuous glucose monitor for a couple of weeks, and found that my BG rises and falls quickly with most meals. I played around with what I ate and found if I have sourdough with my meals (or glucose) I have less of a spike, and can avoid a very sudden drop, but I still tended towards low blood sugar often. The more spikes, and the higher the spikes, the more very low blood sugar.
After two weeks of that I'm not sure CGM (which is measured in the tissue) or BG (blood glucose) is a very helpful tool... I think about these measurements more as a marker that something underlying is going on; and that many interventions that "fix" spikes and drops are bandages on a bullet wound.
However, I'm would say I wouldn't be surprised if high spikes (and drops) causes nausea for many who take large doses of glucose. I tested what happened to my BG is I took more glucose. I still do 1 tbsp every hour. When I tried 3 tbsp the CGM showed the highest levels I've seen. I was also incredibly nauseous, from just 3 tbsp.
I am not surprised to hear people don't feel great while on the large doses, and still don't see a good explanation why large doses would be necessary or even helpful. Stephen's explanation is the amount of glucose limiting events, but (without going in to my family histories and ancestry in to great of a detail) I have generations of severe glucose limitation in my genes, my first severe glucose limitation was in the womb, I've been in three car accidents, and have been so sick for the last four years that I've been practically isolated. I'm not an easy case, yet I seem to have the desired effect from a smaller dose.
If I'm right about the Itaconate shunt, it really makes no sense that large doses would be necessary or helpful.
I'm still okay on the 1 tbsp every hour (12-14 a day), but I've had some immune activation the last couple of weeks, and feel quite exhausted from that. I think it's incredibly positive though, as it seems like the body is fighting off some pathogens it hasn't been able to fight before!
The first week was shingles (around the same time as you, @S-Holmes), then something else the week after. With shingles I had one day of "flu", then the familiar pain in the same nerve pathway (I've had shingles twice after covid, which is not uncommon). The pain subsided within a week from the "flu".
The second week I'm less sure what the body was fighting, but it seemed to be fighting something in the chest area, and brain, which could mean it was covid. The active "flu" lasted 36 hours, but I then had some migraines in the days following (which could be due to the overlap with my period, and that fact that I wasn't able to eat as much, and that combination definitely leaves me vulnerable for migraine).
Whatever it was fighting in the chest it was not completed, so I've felt a bit strange and been very careful to take time to rest. Yesterday it seemed to finish the job, or at least a lot more of it. I still sense there is something that needs to be fought again in the brain/neck/spine.
I am still mostly waking up rested, even when I don't feel very good!
Anyone else experiencing the body fight pathogens?
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@gentlepotato I've been reading and watching everything I can find on the itaconate shunt theory. I watched Dr Phair's video again yesterday. He said they haven't figured out why the process continues unabated, and discussed the two types of immune reactions. "Getting stuck" seems a good way to summarize.
We have such similar experiences! I'm up to 7 Tbsps per dose (4 x a day). Symptoms flare and then subside as the next set of symptoms begin, and since my body REALLY talks to me, and the direction of healing (top down, and inside out) is going according to homeopathic philosophy, it seems I am still making progress!
To manage discomforts and aid healing I have gone back on some of Nathan Hatch's gut protocol suggestions. And I have begun taking supplements to lower ammonia (convert it to urea).
I have another follow up appointment with Dr Stephens this afternoon. I'm hoping he can answer questions about how glucose can be processed by the brain if the krebs cycle is interrupted by the itaconate shunt (if it's even a proven theory). Please share more information about that if you find it. The videos I've found are at least 2 years old.
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@S-Holmes said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
Glad to hear you're doing the research! And not surprising out experience is so similar, since it seems like the Itaconate shunt may have triggered similar imbalances for us. My thinking is the Itaconate shunt is activated in many illnesses and depending on genes and imbalances already at play will increase issues.
I have another follow up appointment with Dr Stephens this afternoon. I'm hoping he can answer questions about how glucose can be processed by the brain if the krebs cycle is interrupted by the itaconate shunt (if it's even a proven theory). Please share more information about that if you find it. The videos I've found are at least 2 years old.
My sense is Dr. Stephens recognizes that the brain has symptoms, and to explain what he is seeing he has jumped to the conclusion and created a sort of narrative that the brain has a valve that inhibits glucose to enter. Ask him if he can explain that in greater detail, because I don't know what the valve he's talking about it. It sounds more like a metaphor, than biology.
This explanation also leaves out a lot about the metabolism. The Krebs cycle doesn't just happen in the brain, it happens in the mitochondria, all over the body. I'm not sure if there are any glucose pathways that just excist in the brain.
My hypothesis is that the brain isn't getting enough ATP for all the jobs it has, because of the Itaconate shunt. But the Itaconate shunt is not complete (if it was I think we would be dead). If enough glucose somehow affects the amount of ATP produced in the Krebs cycle (meaning the Itaconate shunt is less active) the brain will have more fuel. Does that make sense?
I'll see if I can find some more videos about it! And look forward to hearing what Dr. Stephens say.
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@gentlepotato I'm sorry, I don't have a lot of mental energy to research anything currently. Would you mind sharing with me some basics or a protocol that can help with the energy production that is blocked due to the Itaconate shunt? Are there some simple things that can help, or is it very complicated? I am about 2.5 months into glucose therapy (15 Tbsp doses), and I'm not doing well. I have tried countless complicated healing regimens over the years, and the simplicity of glucose speaks to me. Unfortunately, it's not working (yet). If you could point me in the right direction on this, I would appreciate it.
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My sense is Dr. Stephens recognizes that the brain has symptoms, and to explain what he is seeing he has jumped to the conclusion and created a sort of narrative that the brain has a valve that inhibits glucose to enter. Ask him if he can explain that in greater detail, because I don't know what the valve he's talking about it. It sounds more like a metaphor, than biology.
Dr Stephens himself admits that "the valve" isn't a scientific explanation and is still (half jokingly) asking for spinal tap volunteers to help clarify the process.
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@GlucoseOrBust I'm sorry to hear you're not doing well. Are you taking 15 tbsp many times a day?
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You wrote "I'm hoping he can answer questions about how glucose can be processed by the brain if the krebs cycle is interrupted by the itaconate shunt (if it's even a proven theory)."
My point is that if the Itaconate shunt hypothesis is the explanation the issue was never that the brain cannot process glucose (I'm not sure the brain does*); it just didn't have enough ATP for all the jobs it does.
*Edit: separate from the mitochondria that is.
But definitely ask him how the brain processes glucose!
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@gentlepotato said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
You wrote "I'm hoping he can answer questions about how glucose can be processed by the brain if the krebs cycle is interrupted by the itaconate shunt (if it's even a proven theory)."
My point is that if the Itaconate shunt hypothesis is the explanation the issue was never that the brain cannot process glucose (I'm not sure the brain does); it just didn't have enough ATP for all the jobs it does.
These processes take place in all mitochondria. The brain, being living tissue, has mitochondria. This is why I'm stumped. If this shunt process causes the mitochondria in the body and brain (to varying extents) to use mostly protein to make ATP, then my question to him is how does flooding the brain with glucose change these chemical processes. I don't think he will have the answer, but I will ask him.