Protein synthesis / net carbs
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I have a couple of questions one about net carbs and one on protein synthesis.
Easy one first, when calculating carbs is fiber considered or is net carbs used when finding total carbs?
For protein synthesis, Mike Fave's blue print indicates a target of around .8 grams / LBM does that account for your age?
There are quite a few studies that indicate as you age your protein synthesis declines and more protein is needed than for someone in their mid twenties to get the same results.
Any help would be appreciated.
The fractional rate of muscle mitochondrial protein synthesis in young humans (24 ± 1 year) was 0.081 ± 0.004%·h−1, and this rate declined to 0.047 ± 0.005%·h−1 by middle age (54 ± 1 year; P < 0.01). No further decline in the rate of mitochondrial protein synthesis (0.051 ± 0.004%·h−1) occurred with advancing age (73 ± 2 years).
Effect of age on in vivo rates of mitochondrial protein synthesis in human skeletal muscleElderly adults are less responsive to the anabolic stimulus of low doses of amino acid intake compared to younger adults [18]. However, this lack of responsiveness in elderly adults can be overcome with higher levels of protein consumption [18]. This is also reflected in studies comparing varying levels of protein intake [19]. This suggests that the lack of muscle responsiveness to lower doses of protein in older adults can be overcome with a higher level of protein intake.
Protein Consumption and the Elderly: What Is the Optimal Level of Intake? -
80g a day should be enough. You'll get cravings if you need more.
No reason to restrict protein if it has a low amount of methionine and tryptophan. Really hard to find good sources like that in practice
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@psi said in Protein synthesis / net carbs:
80g a day should be enough. You'll get cravings if you need more.
No reason to restrict protein if it has a low amount of methionine and tryptophan. Really hard to find good sources like that in practice
Thanks for the response.
How did you arrive at that number? I take it you are not a red meat eater.
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@Purp1eOne saw that recommended by Ray in an email. After trying it myself for 6 weeks, it seems sufficient. Though I'm not trying to be Swartznegger
I eat squid and meat sometimes when I get cravings for protein. Milk is how I get most of my protein. Suboptimal but convenient. I hope there's not much damage from higher amount of methionine and tryptophan in it.
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@psi
I wish I could eat dairy but it seems to cause issues for me.I am pretty active, not Arnold nor do I want to be but it seems when I drop my protein my recovery takes longer and I lose lbm.
Quick question about this forum, does everyone pretty much follow the same principals as Ray on here or are there some that follow what Mike/Jay recommend? They seem to do things a little different and try to fit the individual instead of the one size fits all.
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@Purp1eOne it could be due to gut problems especially if you did keto before. Sometimes toxins damage us early on. Benedicte Lerche is lactose intolerant despite being Danish, so she goes for lactose free milk. She wasn't able to gradually increase tolerance like Ray suggested.
More people here seem to be interested in supplements instead of less processed nutrition. Also, there aren't rigid principles, rather suggestions by Ray, but everyone tries to avoid PUFA, and lower phosphate. When it comes to protein, there is less clarity.
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@Purp1eOne said in Protein synthesis / net carbs:
@psi
I wish I could eat dairy but it seems to cause issues for me.I am pretty active, not Arnold nor do I want to be but it seems when I drop my protein my recovery takes longer and I lose lbm.
Quick question about this forum, does everyone pretty much follow the same principals as Ray on here or are there some that follow what Mike/Jay recommend? They seem to do things a little different and try to fit the individual instead of the one size fits all.
Back in 2015, I asked Ray to clarify what his standard dietary recommendations were because there was talk on the old Ray Peat Forum that he recommended a fruitarian diet and along with listing foods, he told me that he thought any active adult should get a minimum of 100 g of protein a day, however, I wasn’t aware until he did an interview with Danny and Georgi in the last year of his life that it was in the context of someone with a good metabolic rate consuming a 4–5,000 calorie diet. He said by age 30, the metabolic rate drops dramatically and I recall him recommending 70–80 g of protein a day if one is hypothyroid. All that to say, personal context matters, and Ray took that into account when communicating with people, at least he did with me and other people I know who were in direct communication with him. I believe it’s one reason why I would see such contradictory examples on the forum of something Ray said. The quotes often lacked context.
I have stood on a mountain of no’s for one yes. ~ B. Smith
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@psi said in Protein synthesis / net carbs:
@Purp1eOne it could be due to gut problems especially if you did keto before. Sometimes toxins damage us early on. Benedicte Lerche is lactose intolerant despite being Danish, so she goes for lactose free milk. She wasn't able to gradually increase tolerance like Ray suggested.
More people here seem to be interested in supplements instead of less processed nutrition. Also, there aren't rigid principles, rather suggestions by Ray, but everyone tries to avoid PUFA, and lower phosphate. When it comes to protein, there is less clarity.
I don't have a lactose intolerance I might be allergic. I have EoE and I have eliminated dairy, wheat.soy and eggs. Wheat and soy I don't mind not eating and they will probably stay out of my diet but would like to eat dairy and eggs again. I eliminated wheat and soy with no improvement but when I removed dairy and eggs the numbers improved.
I have ate dairy and egss my entire life without any issues until I did an elimination diet for another issue which was basically keto, didn't go that low with my carbs as the keto gods approve of but after doing that for a period of time EoE appeared.
I have been doing an animal based diet since then with carbs around 150 grams for the past year but since I have upped my carbs to around about 220 grams I feel much better. Going to continue to increase them and adjust my other macros.
I do have gut issues and have been working wiht a functional medicine doc for over a year. Seems to be improving but she loves her supplements, I take piles of them everyday.
I don't mind taking some supplements to fill the gaps but when I am done resolving the gut issues thats all it will be.
I also avoid PUFAs.
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@Purp1eOne is animal based Paul Saladino's current approach? He started eating 500g of carbs a day and the carnivore crowd disowned him
He regrets now to have been so dogmatic cause it makes him look inconsistent nowI had gut issues from oranges strangely. I'm quite well on a mono diet of milk and sugar. The main downside is it's very boring. I don't need a doc, I'm mostly healthy. The main reason for this is elimination diet to find out what gives me allergies.
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@Jennifer said in Protein synthesis / net carbs:
@Purp1eOne said in Protein synthesis / net carbs:
@psi
I wish I could eat dairy but it seems to cause issues for me.I am pretty active, not Arnold nor do I want to be but it seems when I drop my protein my recovery takes longer and I lose lbm.
Quick question about this forum, does everyone pretty much follow the same principals as Ray on here or are there some that follow what Mike/Jay recommend? They seem to do things a little different and try to fit the individual instead of the one size fits all.
Back in 2015, I asked Ray to clarify what his standard dietary recommendations were because there was talk on the old Ray Peat Forum that he recommended a fruitarian diet and along with listing foods, he told me that he thought any active adult should get a minimum of 100 g of protein a day, however, I wasn’t aware until he did an interview with Danny and Georgi in the last year of his life that it was in the context of someone with a good metabolic rate consuming a 4–5,000 calorie diet. He said by age 30, the metabolic rate drops dramatically and I recall him recommending 70–80 g of protein a day if one is hypothyroid. All that to say, personal context matters, and Ray took that into account when communicating with people, at least he did with me and other people I know who were in direct communication with him. I believe it’s one reason why I would see such contradictory examples on the forum of something Ray said. The quotes often lacked context.
I find a lot of times people hear what they want to hear with topics they don't fully grasp. And you are correct everything needs the proper context to understand the information someone is trying to provide.
Like Ray, Mike and Jay also state their guidelines are starting points and need to be adjusted to the individual. I was just wondering if anyone follows Mike/Jay and has heard or read anything where they discussed protein synthesis as you age.
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@psi said in Protein synthesis / net carbs:
@Purp1eOne is animal based Paul Saladino's current approach? He started eating 500g of carbs a day and the carnivore crowd disowned him
He regrets now to have been so dogmatic cause it makes him look inconsistent nowI had gut issues from oranges strangely. I'm quite well on a mono diet of milk and sugar. The main downside is it's very boring. I don't need a doc, I'm mostly healthy. The main reason for this is elimination diet to find out what gives me allergies.
That is Paul's current approach, I have never heard him say who goes that high with his carbs though. And yes the different cultures in the health space are very dogmatic and with Paul showing the ability to adjust his perspective I actually like and shows me he is willing to admit he was wrong which you don't find too much in this space.
My big issue is food allergies. Which I is why I am trying to fix my gut.
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@Purp1eOne have you tried changing mineral ratios? Muscle meat is high in phosphate, which is why animal based is misleading. I haven't tried increasing magnesium and potassium.
I have noticed a skin allergy to citric acid. Probably traces of lead in it. It's hard to find food that's not allergenic in an average store.
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I track everything pretty good. What should I look for?
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@Purp1eOne intake of calcium, potassium, magnesium, phosphate, iron. I only know of calcium to phosphate ratio being in molar excess of calcium. This is for bone health, but maybe for allergies too. Some people say that Paul ate too much liver and got allergies from too much vitamin A or iron.
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I'll check them out thanks
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@Purp1eOne said in Protein synthesis / net carbs:
@Jennifer said in Protein synthesis / net carbs:
@Purp1eOne said in Protein synthesis / net carbs:
@psi
I wish I could eat dairy but it seems to cause issues for me.I am pretty active, not Arnold nor do I want to be but it seems when I drop my protein my recovery takes longer and I lose lbm.
Quick question about this forum, does everyone pretty much follow the same principals as Ray on here or are there some that follow what Mike/Jay recommend? They seem to do things a little different and try to fit the individual instead of the one size fits all.
Back in 2015, I asked Ray to clarify what his standard dietary recommendations were because there was talk on the old Ray Peat Forum that he recommended a fruitarian diet and along with listing foods, he told me that he thought any active adult should get a minimum of 100 g of protein a day, however, I wasn’t aware until he did an interview with Danny and Georgi in the last year of his life that it was in the context of someone with a good metabolic rate consuming a 4–5,000 calorie diet. He said by age 30, the metabolic rate drops dramatically and I recall him recommending 70–80 g of protein a day if one is hypothyroid. All that to say, personal context matters, and Ray took that into account when communicating with people, at least he did with me and other people I know who were in direct communication with him. I believe it’s one reason why I would see such contradictory examples on the forum of something Ray said. The quotes often lacked context.
I find a lot of times people hear what they want to hear with topics they don't fully grasp. And you are correct everything needs the proper context to understand the information someone is trying to provide.
Like Ray, Mike and Jay also state their guidelines are starting points and need to be adjusted to the individual. I was just wondering if anyone follows Mike/Jay and has heard or read anything where they discussed protein synthesis as you age.
Yes, it’s true that people often hear what they want to hear when they don’t fully understand something. I’m not familiar with Jay or know of anyone following Mike, and I’m not sure if Mike has gone into detail about protein synthesis as we age, but he did say that he thinks protein should be on the higher end if older so it seems to me his protein target takes age (and activity level) into account:
“*Protein: (about 15-20% calories) .6-.8g/lb. Protein should be on the higher end if you are active, or you are older. Protein sources should be from ruminant meat (beef, bison, lamb, goat), specific seafood (shrimp, scallops, cod, sole, oysters, mussels, clams), pasture raised eggs, very lean 99% chicken/ turkey/ fowl (These are very lean because they are high in polyunsaturated fats if not).”
Since you developed allergies and digestive issues following a keto(ish) elimination diet and feel better since upping your carbs, I wonder if your thyroid was affected. Have you tracked your temps and pulse rate first thing in the morning and 20–30 minutes after eating? Too much protein relative to your needs and not enough carbs can lower thyroid function, and poor thyroid function is a common cause of allergies. When my thyroid crashed, for the first time in my life I began experiencing allergic reactions within minutes of eating such as my throat closing up, convulsions leading to syncope, rashes and full-body hives:
Also, could one or more of the supplements you’re taking be contributing to your allergies? Even if the excipients are safe, supplements often contain allergenic impurities from the manufacturing process.
I have stood on a mountain of no’s for one yes. ~ B. Smith
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@Jennifer said in Protein synthesis / net carbs:
“*Protein: (about 15-20% calories) .6-.8g/lb. Protein should be on the higher end if you are active, or you are older. Protein sources should be from ruminant meat (beef, bison, lamb, goat), specific seafood (shrimp, scallops, cod, sole, oysters, mussels, clams), pasture raised eggs, very lean 99% chicken/ turkey/ fowl (These are very lean because they are high in polyunsaturated fats if not).”
I am older and active to I try to get 1g/lb. Like I mentioned in an earlier post when I dropped the protein intake below that my recovery suffered but that was with lower carbs so now that I am increasing them I will adjust and see how it works. I only track animal based protein in crono and disregard the plant based.
@Jennifer said in Protein synthesis / net carbs:
Since you developed allergies and digestive issues following a keto(ish) elimination diet and feel better since upping your carbs, I wonder if your thyroid was affected. Have you tracked your temps and pulse rate first thing in the morning and 20–30 minutes after eating? Too much protein relative to your needs and not enough carbs can lower thyroid function, and poor thyroid function is a common cause of allergies.
I never had any thyroid problems until I did the lower carb diet. I did lab work while I was on that diet and my free T3 crashed but as soon as I increased the carbs it came right back to upper levels and that was just around 120 carbs. Definitely affected my thyroid. Unfortunately I had food allergies before starting that diet. I have had to avoid shell fish for quite some time now. But the EoE and possibly related to dairy/eggs could be the supps she has me on or my gut is now so messed up that will be need to be corrected. Would be nice if it was one of the supplements. Good thing is I am rotating off of some of the supps she has had me on for a year now and that is in the time frame EoE appeared.
Something I will need to watch, thanks.
