DHT as an alternative for TRT
-
I have the study.
"Anabolic" effects of methandienone in men undergoing athletic training
G.R Hervey October 1976, Published in The Lancet
100 mg Dbol per diem for 6 weeks. LH, FSH had no statistically significant decline, but testosterone fell by about half. That suggests that there is primary transient hypogonadism because there is enough LH, FSH in the blood but the testicles are not producing enough testosterone. That leads me to think that there is some negative feedback directly in the testicles.
It could also be that there is excessive conversion to estrogen, but I think the testicles are also being inhibited.
-
@jamezb46 Very interesting. Yes, the testicles will reduce their expression of crucial steroidogenic enzymes, in response to more androgen agonism in the testicles.
https://sci-hub.se/10.1111/j.1749-6632.1984.tb38367.x
As seen on the graph, R1881 / Methyltrenbolone, was able to reduce hCG stimulated expression of intratesticular 3-beta HSD levels.Estradiol also does the same
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3862577/@jamezb46 said in DHT as an alternative for TRT:
@alfredoolivas
It could also be that there is excessive conversion to estrogen, but I think the testicles are also being inhibited.Generally, a minuscule amount of androgens are converted into estrogen. Testosterone is roughly 200–1,000 times higher than estradiol in concentration.
That is why androgens are measured in ng/dl, whereas estrogen is measured in pg/dl.
So it's impossible for testosterone to be significantly lowered, due to aromatase "stealing it" and turning it into estrogen. Estrogen will only lower testosterone by inhibiting LH and lowering steroidogenic enzymes. And it does so very well
-
@alfredoolivas
https://haidut.me/?p=1317
"Normal men produce ~45 mcg of estradiol each day, a sixth of which is secreted by the testes and the remainder of which is derived from the extraglandular aromatization of circulating androgens"Only 45mcg of estradiol is made daily from the 20-25mg (my estimation of DHEA, testosterone, androstenedione levels?) pool of aromatasable androgens, so yeah, the aromatase enzyme isn't directly lowering androgen levels by stealing androgens, even if it is extremely elevated @jamezb46
-
Yes, but its downstream effects are inhibiting T production.
I wonder if Ray’s suggestion to use Pregnenalone to safeguard the gonads would work to preserve their steroidogenic potential even in the presence of high levels of circulating androgens?
And if that did work, perhaps using topical Pregnenalone, k2, and caffeine on the scrotal skin would be even more effective.
-
@jamezb46 Are you referencing this study?
Pregnenolone (P5) fully prevents testicular atrophy due to steroid (ab)use or high estrogen
According to Haidut's calculations, this study has shown that pregnenolone used in doses of 10x -15x that of testosterone, will fully prevent gonadal atrophy, from testosterone and estradiol.
Not sure if the studies he referenced showed the levels of intratesticular steroids after the pregnenolone, but maybe one can assume that pregnenolone improved intra-testicular levels of androgens.
However, he also referenced this study showing that testosterone can actually inhibit gonadal atrophy, and is gonadotropic.
“…It will be seen that at low dosage levels delta-5-pregnenolone is even more gonadotropic than testosterone, methyl testosterone, androstenediol or dehydro-iso-androsterone, while at the 10 mg. dosage level delta-5-pregnenolone is less effective than the above compounds. ....small doses of testosterone cause a testis atrophy which is not seen at high dose levels (1 1). This fact could best be explained by the assumption that comparatively low doses of testoids inhibit the gonadotropic hormone secretion of the pituitary and thus cause a secondary testis involution which, in the case of high doses, is over-compensated by the direct testis-stimulating effect of these compounds."
"As it has recently been shown that the testis atrophy caused by estradiol can be inhibited by testosterone and progesterone[2,3]"
This makes perfect sense given testosterones (and all other androgens) anti-estrogenic effect
This actually explains my experience with testosterone very well; I have been currently, running 2100mg of test enanthate a week, for the past 9 months, and have not seen a too significant reduction in semen volume.
-
@alfredoolivas dude your nuts arent shrunken ?
at 140mg test cyp a week i got no noticeable nut shrinkage but also no noticeable positive effect
at 350mg or maybe it was 500mg i cant remember i got definite nut shrinkage and major side effects. i was also not peaty at all at the time . i imagine i could take that dose and be mostly fine now
how tf are u running 2100mg tho lol
-
so if i take 34mg (a fibonacci number) of dbol per day split throughoutbthe day (best way to take it) orally and 5mg of dht transdermal i should also take like 400mg of pregnenolone a day? seems a lot maybe just 50-100mg in tocopherol for higher absorption would be good
-
@alfredoolivas pls post ur physique . some of the stuff you say sounds retardo but at the same time i dont intend to dismiss it without an actual reason for prejudice. the answer lies within an image of ur physique
-
@sushi_is_cringe
DHT has a binding affinity twice that of T, so 5mg of DHT is equivelent to 10mg of T and D bol has a binding affinity 5 times that of testosterone, so 34mg of Dbol is equivelent to 6mg of T.
So the androgens you will be taking MIGHT be equivalent to 16mg of T. I have no idea, I am just referencing cell studies and binding affinity of steroids, not their activation of the androgen receptor or their transcription of the androgen receptor.
So 160mg of pregnenolone.
Don't know why you are taking dianabol... because it doesn't significantly lower LH, even though it cuts T in half? It is liver toxic, and it creates such shitty side effects in people.
People are always trying to find something that is safer and better than simply taking testosterone... Dianabol is not the way to go.
-
@sushi_is_cringe Probably have shrunk, but I don't think I would of noticed my nut size change or semen volume change, if I didn't know I was on gear.
-
@sushi_is_cringe I haven't got a good physique. I can dumbell press 110lb dumbells, but I don't know what my bench or squat or deadlift is, as I don't enjoy these exercises / care about anabolism and therefore don't take the gym seriously. I have never mentioned anything about anabolism in these steroid debates, as I am not interested in anabolism. If you want maximal anabolism, then take a bunch of estrogenic steroids, HGH and insulin bulk with a lot of food, sleep well and train very hard. Very boring to talk about and the results do not look appealing.
I simply discuss the metabolic, genomic, pharmacokinetic, and psychoneuroendocrinology aspects of steroids, amongst other topics. If my lack care about anabolism, means you are not convinced by my arguments and the studies I reference, so be it.
Edit: I have had nothing but positive experiences of running this much gear for nearly a year. I have no estrogenic symptoms; no hair loss, no water retention (in fact it was lowered by testosterone), no gyno, no roid rage, nothing negative. I also have no estrogenic symptoms that may been seen in a positive light, such an excessive sex drive, mania, disinhibtion, excess anabolism.
I simply have a good sex drive, confidence, masculinity and okay anabolism from this dose. Nothing else. The best way I can describe this cycle, is how people describe being on primobolan or masteron.
I am doing this all without an AI; I would be much more interested, about how I can handle this much test sustainably without an AI and estrogen issues, than anabolism or my physique. Just saying.
-
Well since most of the pregnenalone that is taken orally is converted to progesterone derivatives, I'm not sure if that would confound the calculation.
If 10-15x pregnenalone in circulation is what is needed to prevent testicular atrophy, then you're probably never going to be able to get there with oral supplementation since most of it is converted to progesterones. But, maybe that's fine because progesterone can also save the testes.
Why not just do transdermal pregnenalone or testosterone to the testes (or both) together with an AI like androsterone? If someone wants to try this, it would be very useful.
-
@jamezb46 Good thought, Haidut recommended that in the comment section of the original thread on the low toxin forum.
-
@alfredoolivas oh, ok. thanks for the explanation
-
Where to get real pharma andracrim dht ? I have ppl but I am afraid an dont take. Possible to get rx from hormone doctor? is idealab androsterone equivalent ?
