Ecdysterone
-
Very interesting steroid. Or a form of Vitamin D, mostly know for it's muscle enhancing effects.
Got interested in it because of this great thread.The only thing I don't agree with is that 20-hydroxyecdysone is not a ecdysterone . In fact it is (beta)ecdysterone. They are the same substance.
What's brought up often is it's supposed estrogenicity. There's a few things to say about this.
-
It could still have a net anti-estrogenic effect by displacing endogenous estrogens from the receptor. And if it was estrogenic it wouldn't have the anti-cancer, liver-protective and anti-fibrotic effect that it has.
-
There are studies showing little or no estrogenicity, so it might not be estrogenic at all.
- In this study it doesn't show any of the effects of E2 (for example increase in uterus weight)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20097286/
This study is even clearer. Ecdysterone does not bind to the estrogen receptor. It increases bone mineral density, which is more likely a sign of an anti-estrogenic effect, since osteoporosis is actually caused by estrogen.
It also increases osteocalcin, similar to vitamin K2, which is androgenic."Ecd did not bind to ER. BMD was reduced by more than 50% in the control. In the Ecd animals BMD was dose dependently higher. Serum CrossLaps was lower in the Ecd and E2 group while serum Osteocalcin levels were decreased in the E2 but increased in the Ecd fed animals. Ecd has an antiosteoporotic effect which does not involve activation of ER."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20554186/Liver protective
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31190566/10It increases AMPK and FGF21, which is mainly responsible for the vast amount of benefits from protein restriction. So ecdysterone might be able to replicate those to an extent. As this study showed : low body weight and fat gain , without change on caloric intake, indicating an uncoupling effect or temperature increase.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32375750/reduced hepatic triglyceride content and visceral fat deposition
Anti-diabetic
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22484004/Anti-fibrotic
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22858168/Prevents thymus atrophy
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11094-010-0387-8It inhibits glucocorticoids effects on bones
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25585248/It might lower acetylcholine in the brain ( a good thing according to Ray)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6146468/It seems to be partially able to fill in for vitamin D .
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9505354/It increases ACE2 protecting from fibrosis and in this case covid
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(23)00560-6/fulltextHas anti-stress effect.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25322653/ -
-
@Mauritio said in Ecdysterone:
does not bind to the estrogen receptor.
Which one? According to the following study beta-ecdysterone increases muscle hypertrophy through ERβ but also decreased estradiol.
- Estrogen receptor beta is involved in skeletal muscle hypertrophy induced by the phytoecdysteroid ecdysterone
"Results: In male rats, Ecdy treatment increased muscle fiber size, serum IGF-1 increased, and corticosteron and 17β-estradiol (E2) decreased. In differentiated C2C12 myoblastoma cells, treatment with Ecdy, dihydrotestosterone, IGF-1 but also E2 results in hypertrophy. Hypertrophy induced by E2 and Ecdy could be antagonized with an antiestrogen but not by an antiandrogen. In HEK293 cells transfected with ER alpha (ERα) or ERβ, Ecdy treatment transactivated a reporter gene. To elucidate the role of ERβ in Ecdy-mediated muscle hypertrophy, C2C12 myotubes were treated with ERα (ALPHA) and ERβ (BETA) selective ligands. Ecdy and BETA treatment but not ALPHA induced hypertrophy. The effect of Ecdy, E2, and BETA could be antagonized by an ERβ-selective antagonist (ANTIBETA). In summary, our results indicate that ERβ is involved in the mediation of the anabolic activity of the Ecdy."
Estrogen's effect on uterine weight is mainly or solely mediated through ERα.
From what I recall, spinach and quinoa are decent dietary sources of beta-ecdysterone. But quinoa is also a decent source of PUFAs, and spinach is a source of oxalates.
- Estrogen receptor beta is involved in skeletal muscle hypertrophy induced by the phytoecdysteroid ecdysterone
-
@NoeticJuice it's in the study.
Even if it binds estrogen receptor , there's fill this point .
"It could still have a net anti-estrogenic effect by displacing endogenous estrogens from the receptor. And if it was estrogenic it wouldn't have the anti-cancer, liver-protective and anti-fibrotic effect that it has."
-
@Mauritio said in Ecdysterone:
It could still have a net anti-estrogenic effect by displacing endogenous estrogens from the receptor.
If we are to believe the study I shared, then this point is unlikely to be applicable in this context. Ecdy's effect on muscle hypertrophy was antagonized by an ERβ-selective antagonist. Since ecdy might reduce estradiol and doesn't seem to act as an agonist at ERα, it possibly reduces ERα-mediated effects.
I agree, it doesn't seem to have feminizing or negative effects usually associated with estrogen. But, based on the study I shared, it might have benefits through an estrogenic pathway.
-
@NoeticJuice It seems so . But it's misleading to call it estrogenic when its are effect are anti-estrogenic.
-
The guys from the Superhuman pod did a whole series on ecdy several years ago. These two have a ton of advanced knowledge on cycles of all kinds, and both concluded that ecdy was totally ineffective for hypertrophy in their own experimentation with it. Now, these dudes have run large cycles of test in their lives, so they’re judging this against the power of supra-physiological levels of test itself, (something to keep in mind just for perspective). That said, if ecdy had any real impact on hypertrophy these two would know, and they didn’t seem to think it was worth it.
Just a perspective on hypertrophy, not androgenicity per say.
-
@evan-hinkle There's a lot of anecdotal evidence that begs to differ. Many people say that ecdysterone, is in fact one of the only non-steroidal things that work.
That beeing said , I think it's pro-metabolic effect are more interesting than its supposed hypertrophy effects.
-
@Mauritio What about DHEA + Preg+ an AI?
-
@jamezb46 Sounds good
