How to lower Adrenaline
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@fd Look into magnesium supplementation:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7761127/
"The hypothalamic–pituitary–adrenal (HPA) axis and the autonomic nervous system (comprising SNS and PNS) have been identified as the mediators of this neurobiological stress model [90,91,95]. First, corticotrophin-releasing factor (CRF) is secreted from the paraventricular nucleus in the hypothalamus; the subsequent secretion of adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH) from the anterior pituitary stimulates the release of glucocorticoids (mainly cortisol) from the adrenal cortex [97]. Noradrenaline (NA) and adrenaline are also released from the sympathetic nerves and the adrenal medulla, and together with the glucocorticoids regulate the stress response [90,91]. Cortisol also interacts with the serotonergic pathway, adjusting the release of serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine or 5-HT) neurotransmitter in response to acute or chronic stressors [98]. Serotoninergic neurons modulate the stress response either via direct neurotransmission to the hypothalamus, or by stimulation of noradrenergic neurons [97]. In addition to the regulation through feedback mechanisms, the HPA axis is also modulated by other central systems, particularly by the inhibitory action of the γ-aminobutyric acid (GABA), and the excitatory effect of glutamate [99].In this neurobiological model, cortisol is a well-known mediator of the stress response. The nocturnal cortisol urinary excretion in apparently healthy subjects reflects the basal tone of the HPA axis [100]; conversely, the blood cortisol concentration measured in a challenging environment is a sign of stress activity [101]. It has been shown that cortisol coordinates the central response to stress at several levels [102], and indirectly influences mechanisms of neuroprotection [103]. Neurotrophic factor production, represented by the brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BNDF), intervenes in allostasis through protecting neurons [104]. Normally, BNDF promotes neuronal survival and plasticity [104]; however, changes in BNDF expression have been reported following exposure to stressful stimuli. An increase of BNDF has been observed in response to moderate stress [105], whereas a decrease has been associated with high levels of stress [106]. Furthermore, increasing evidence shows a link between cortisol responses and oxidant elevation [107]. The accumulation of free radicals and other reactive oxygen species is also a sign of allostatic load, resulting from the imbalance between cellular metabolic activities and antioxidant defense mechanisms [108,109].
Noteworthy, magnesium interacts with all these stress mediators [17,110,111,112], overall serving an inhibitory function in the regulation and central neurotransmission of the stress response (details of these interactions are summarized in chapter 6)."
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Although Ray Peat did not discuss magnesium in depth, he did mention it multiple times and considered it very important. I remember he said that hypothyroid people have a "hard time holding onto magnesium".I personally have found that magnesium glycinate works well for me. I'm able to tolerate the suggested/recommended dose of 3100mg/day very well since I've been taking high dose thiamine hcl. Please note that 3100mg of thiamine glycinate = something like 400mg pure magnesium.
Peat did recommend thiamine multiple times; I remember that he said that if you consume more than ________ amount of sugar/carbs you'll need more thiamine to utilize it. My memory has recorded that the amount was that which is found in 2 quarts of milk + 1 quart of orange juice, but I don't have the link to that quote, sorry.
Sugar/carbs use up thiamine; thiamine (b1) is used as a cofactor for several enzymes in the Krebs cycle. If you develop a thiamine deficiency, real problems occur because oxidative metabolism is compromised.
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@mostlylurking said in How to lower Adrenaline:
@fd Look into magnesium supplementation:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7761127/
"The hypothalamic–pituitary–adrenal (HPA) axis and the autonomic nervous system (comprising SNS and PNS) have been identified as the mediators of this neurobiological stress model [90,91,95]. First, corticotrophin-releasing factor (CRF) is secreted from the paraventricular nucleus in the hypothalamus; the subsequent secretion of adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH) from the anterior pituitary stimulates the release of glucocorticoids (mainly cortisol) from the adrenal cortex [97]. Noradrenaline (NA) and adrenaline are also released from the sympathetic nerves and the adrenal medulla, and together with the glucocorticoids regulate the stress response [90,91]. Cortisol also interacts with the serotonergic pathway, adjusting the release of serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine or 5-HT) neurotransmitter in response to acute or chronic stressors [98]. Serotoninergic neurons modulate the stress response either via direct neurotransmission to the hypothalamus, or by stimulation of noradrenergic neurons [97]. In addition to the regulation through feedback mechanisms, the HPA axis is also modulated by other central systems, particularly by the inhibitory action of the γ-aminobutyric acid (GABA), and the excitatory effect of glutamate [99].In this neurobiological model, cortisol is a well-known mediator of the stress response. The nocturnal cortisol urinary excretion in apparently healthy subjects reflects the basal tone of the HPA axis [100]; conversely, the blood cortisol concentration measured in a challenging environment is a sign of stress activity [101]. It has been shown that cortisol coordinates the central response to stress at several levels [102], and indirectly influences mechanisms of neuroprotection [103]. Neurotrophic factor production, represented by the brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BNDF), intervenes in allostasis through protecting neurons [104]. Normally, BNDF promotes neuronal survival and plasticity [104]; however, changes in BNDF expression have been reported following exposure to stressful stimuli. An increase of BNDF has been observed in response to moderate stress [105], whereas a decrease has been associated with high levels of stress [106]. Furthermore, increasing evidence shows a link between cortisol responses and oxidant elevation [107]. The accumulation of free radicals and other reactive oxygen species is also a sign of allostatic load, resulting from the imbalance between cellular metabolic activities and antioxidant defense mechanisms [108,109].
Noteworthy, magnesium interacts with all these stress mediators [17,110,111,112], overall serving an inhibitory function in the regulation and central neurotransmission of the stress response (details of these interactions are summarized in chapter 6)."
-end paste-
Although Ray Peat did not discuss magnesium in depth, he did mention it multiple times and considered it very important. I remember he said that hypothyroid people have a "hard time holding onto magnesium".I personally have found that magnesium glycinate works well for me. I'm able to tolerate the suggested/recommended dose of 3100mg/day very well since I've been taking high dose thiamine hcl. Please note that 3100mg of magnesium glycinate = something like 400mg pure magnesium.
Peat did recommend thiamine multiple times; I remember that he said that if you consume more than ________ amount of sugar/carbs you'll need more thiamine to utilize it. My memory has recorded that the amount was that which is found in 2 quarts of milk + 1 quart of orange juice, but I don't have the link to that quote, sorry.
Sugar/carbs use up thiamine; thiamine (b1) is used as a cofactor for several enzymes in the Krebs cycle. If you develop a thiamine deficiency, real problems occur because oxidative metabolism is compromised.
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@mostlylurking
EDIT: that's Magnesium Glycinate, NOT "thiamine" glycinate. Oops, sorry about the typo/error.Is there a way to edit posts after posting them?
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Thank you all.
I was taking:
- 500mg Magnesium Glycinate a day
Currently (just started):
- 500mg Magnesium Glycinate
- 1000mg Niacinamide
Soon I will add:
- Cardenosine (from idealabs)
Other things I take on a daily basis which I am unsure if that helps: Vitamin A, D, K, E, B1, T3.
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@fd The vitamin A supplementation is controversial; I just rely on my diet for vitamin A which does include eggs.
I've found lower doses of niacinamide to be more helpful; I take 100mg, 4Xday. I got better results taking it this way than taking 200mg, 2Xday. Niacinamide is water soluble so it doesn't stick around for longer than a couple of hours.
Which thiamine are you taking?
I found it really important to rely on a good endocrinologist to help me with my hypothyroidism. He spent 9 months optimizing my dose of desiccated thyroid supplement (NP Thyroid by Acella). He ran blood tests on me about every 6-8 weeks. It wasn't something that I could have done without him.
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Have you tried switching to a thyroid product that has some t4 in it as well? I've never really seen t3 on its own work for many people.
Thyroid should lower adrenalin eventually, once you get the dose right.
Do you have gut issues? they tend to cause a lot of adrenalin.
Taurine is pretty good at lowering adrenaline, or there's propranolol like somebody else mentioned.
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@mostlylurking said in How to lower Adrenaline:
@fd The vitamin A supplementation is controversial; I just rely on my diet for vitamin A which does include eggs.
I've found lower doses of niacinamide to be more helpful; I take 100mg, 4Xday. I got better results taking it this way than taking 200mg, 2Xday. Niacinamide is water soluble so it doesn't stick around for longer than a couple of hours.
Which thiamine are you taking?
I found it really important to rely on a good endocrinologist to help me with my hypothyroidism. He spent 9 months optimizing my dose of desiccated thyroid supplement (NP Thyroid by Acella). He ran blood tests on me about every 6-8 weeks. It wasn't something that I could have done without him.
Thiamine Hydrochloride, 500mg
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@fd OK. I take that one too. It's important to take it with water only and at least 30 minutes away from food. Dr. Costantini recommends to take half of the daily dose mid-morning and the other half mid-afternoon. If you take it late in the day it can interfere with your sleep by lowering your blood sugar.
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@fd I'd like to add that because thiamine hcl has very poor absorption through the intestinal wall, the dose of it needs to be pretty high to do much. Although I did get some benefit from taking 350mg of thiamine hcl 2Xday, I did not get full benefit until I started taking 1 gram 2Xday. After 2 days on that dose, my entire digestive tract normalized and I experienced massive improvement in my health. I follow Dr. Costantini's protocol for thiamine hcl. The dose is based on body weight.
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Cypro is your best friend. Thank me later.
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@BlueMeth Are you speaking to me? I'll assume yes.
Cypro: I've been there and done that. I took a tiny bit (1 drop, 2? I've slept since then). Anyhow, the next morning 9:00-9:30 am, I was so loopy I couldn't function. So I researched it.
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"Do not use cyproheptadine if you have used an MAO inhibitor in the past 14 days, such as isocarboxazid, linezolid, methylene blue injection, phenelzine, rasagiline, selegiline, or tranylcypromine."What does an MAO inhibitor do?
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"Monoamine oxidase inhibitors are responsible for blocking the monoamine oxidase enzyme. The monoamine oxidase enzyme breaks down different types of neurotransmitters from the brain: norepinephrine, serotonin, dopamine, and tyramine. MAOIs inhibit the breakdown of these neurotransmitters thus, increasing their levels and allowing them to continue to influence the cells that have been affected by depression.[6]"I believe that I reacted badly to Cyproheptadine because I had a thiamine deficiency which resulted in serotonin build up in my brain synapses. In other words, the thiamine deficiency caused the same issue as an mao inhibitor.
additionally:
About Methylene Blue:
Methylene blue increases the risk of serotonin toxicity.also this one: https://www.apsf.org/article/methylene-blue-and-the-risk-of-serotonin-toxicity/
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"Serotonin toxicity is a result of inappropriately high levels of synaptic serotonin and its severity directly relates to the concentration of serotonin (5-HT) in the synaptic spaces in nervous tissue. Both serotonin releasers like methamphetamine and serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SRIs) have the potential to induce severe serotonin toxicity when administered with MAO inhibitors. Selective and non-selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors increase serotonin by preventing its clearance from the intraneuronal synaptic space. MAO inhibitors prevent intraneuronal metabolism of serotonin, leading to increased release of serotonin from neurons. SRIs by themselves, even if taken in overdose, do not usually precipitate the severe form of serotonin toxicity. However, normal therapeutic SRI doses along with even a single dose of an MAOI like methylene blue may lead to serotonin toxicity as a result of the combination of increased 5-HT release and reduced synaptic 5-HT clearance.9"
-end paste-Thiamine is needed to clear serotonin from the brain synapses. I was living with a thiamine deficiency for a very long time (decades). My brain serotonin was very high because of this. I wasn't taking ssri's but my serotonin was so high that I was unable to tolerate serotonergic foods like bananas and pineapple. The addition of a tiny dose of methylene blue was toxic to my system. It made me feel pretty awful.
I've recovered from the problem I had with brain serotonin overload via taking thiamine hcl. I am now able to enjoy the occasional banana without issue whereas before I could not.
So thanks anyway but I'll pass on the cypro (and the methylene blue too) and I'll stick with the thiamine hcl (and the magnesium glycinate).
Here's an article for your consideration:
https://www.hormonesmatter.com/serotonin-syndrome-thiamine-connection/ -
Agree with what's already mentioned about salt. Having a teaspoon of salt in some water, making sure it's properly dissolved, has been the most potent thing for immediate results for me.
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@mostlylurking I remember from the RP Forum that you're a huge fan of thiamine and convinced that thiamine deficiency is behind most people's problems. I'm not so sure about that. The list of symptoms of thiamine deficiency is basically every symptom under the sun, and I know that Ray Peat was never terribly convinced that thiamine was the be all and end all. I asked him about it once and he said it's most likely hypothyroidism. He advocated for dosages between 10-100 mg a day. There is a very long list of people who believed they had beri beri and started taking high dose thiamine and experienced nothing but misery and a host of new problems, which I know the thiamine cheerleaders simply call "the paradoxical reaction" (or something to do with methylation or not having the right co-factors etc), but it never went away and they had to give up. They're in a facebook group and it's depressing reading. Do me a favour mate and PLEASE don't spam every thread on this new forum with the beri beri guff!
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And FWIW, cypro is known to make people feel loopy, sluggish etc in the beginning. It's an almost universal reaction, and it passes when the body adjusts. Given how heavily impacted by excess serotonin you seem to have been, I wouldn't write cypro off based on one standalone experiment. Cypro acts on serotonin like nothing else, and as a result, a host of other down river symptoms given what a master manipulator serotonin is.
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@BlueMeth Thanks for sharing.
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@A-Former-User said in How to lower Adrenaline:
I remember from the RP Forum that you're a huge fan of thiamine and convinced that thiamine deficiency is behind most people's problems. I'm not so sure about that. The list of symptoms of thiamine deficiency is basically every symptom under the sun, and I know that Ray Peat was never terribly convinced that thiamine was the be all and end all. I asked him about it once and he said it's most likely hypothyroidism. He advocated for dosages between 10-100 mg a day. There is a very long list of people who believed they had beri beri and started taking high dose thiamine and experienced nothing but misery and a host of new problems, which I know the thiamine cheerleaders simply call "the paradoxical reaction" (or something to do with methylation or not having the right co-factors etc), but it never went away and they had to give up. They're in a facebook group and it's depressing reading. Do me a favour mate and PLEASE don't spam every thread on this new forum with the beri beri guff!
I should just ignore you because you are being a first class jerk. But I've decided to respond instead.
#1: Ray Peat recommended thiamine quite a lot actually; he just never wrote a full article about it. Here are a few links for your consideration:
Thiamine mentioned in Ray Peat's written work
Vitamin B1 (thiamine) mentioned in Ray Peat's written work
Thiamine mentioned in Ray Peat's audio interviews
Vitamin B1 (thiamine) mentioned in Ray Peat's audio interviews
#2 This forum is named the Bioenergetic Forum for a reason.
https://www.nature.com/subjects/bioenergetics
"Bioenergetics is the branch of biochemistry that focuses on how cells transform energy, often by producing, storing or consuming adenosine triphosphate (ATP). Bioenergetic processes, such as cellular respiration or photosynthesis, are essential to most aspects of cellular metabolism, therefore to life itself."Ray Peat focused a lot on the concept that if cellular energy is optimized then health follows.
It will probably come as a shock for you to learn that thiamine is required for cellular energy. Thiamine acts as a co-enzyme in several steps in the Krebs cycle which is how cellular energy (ATP) happens.
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