mk4 dosing?
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I wanted to start including some mk4 supplement into my diet. Mainly because I take 1000mg of supplemental Ca and I would think it is a good idea to take some Vitamin K along with it.
what would be a maintenance daily dose of mk4 for general health?
do I need to take it along with Ca supplement for Ca metabolism or it does not matter?
thanks in advance.
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@GRay said in mk4 dosing?:
what would be a maintenance daily dose of mk4 for general health?
There is no consensus.
Bone metabolism and joints: Dependent on vitamin K2
To absorb Ca (via osteoblasts), the body is dependent on vitamin K2. The synthesis of osteocalcin depends on vitamin K2. If we schematize: osteocalcin allows the body to use calcium for bone metabolism. In the absence of vitamin K, osteocalcin cannot function. Vitamin K2 is necessary to carboxylate/activate K2-dependent proteins so that they perform their functions. For example, the matrix Gla protein (MGP protein or osteocalcin), it prevents calcium from being deposited on blood vessels and other soft tissues. The more vitamin K2 you lack, the less MGP will be activated, so calcium will lodge in the arteries, creating stasis and then blockage...
NB: the matrix Gla protein is not specific to bone: it is also found in the wall of vessels where it plays a role in inhibiting vascular calcification.See animation on this link (bone remodeling):
http://www.random42.com/bone-biology-osteoblasts-and-osteoclasts-animationInfo on absorption, target and dosage of vitamin K (and links from Chris Masterjohn and Kate Rheaume-blue) (in French, with English links)
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t1704-vit-k-mk4-vs-mk7-update-02-2020#21497
Excerpt
Optimal Dosage
There is no recommended optimal dosage for vitamin K2, as studies do not distinguish between K1 and K2.
We need a lot of fat to assimilate vitamin K2. Three absorption thresholds for vitamin K: 14 â 25 â 35 g fat.
Absorption is 3 times greater with 35g of lipid during a meal than with 20g. 6 times less with 8.8g.
http://suppversity.blogspot.be/2014/05/vitamin-d-e-k-how-much-and-what-type-of.htmlHow much vitamin K
K1= 45 mcg.
Enough to improve the level of artery calcification and cardiac mortality. It depends on the interaction between A D K vitamins.
K2 type MK4: 45 mg (45.000 mcg).
Recommended to decarboxylate the Osteocalcin level.
K2 type MK7: 240 mcg for diabetics and obese people. Level recommended in the prevention of atherosclerosis, diabetes, osteoporosis, obesity, etc.
From « Dosage optimum » on this link (in French)
http://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t706-vitamine-k2-achat-exemples-de-produits#6433
Kate RhĂ©aume-Bleue, B.Sc., N.D., from her book « Vitamin K2 and the calcium paradoxâ.*) What about calcium intake?
I wonât take a dose calcium higher than 200-250 mg element. 250 mg per dose. Flexibility is more important than density. The reed bends but does not break. Amazonian tribes are happy with 550 mg of Ca without any problems.
If you are deficient in Ca, PTH is stimulated by the brain (pituitary gland) to activate osteocalcin. PTH is central to the regulation of bone metabolism. This hormone stimulates the reconstruction/deconstruction (remodeling) process.
NB: 750-800 mg Ca is optimal, (RP advises 850 mg, I think). Note there is a balance to find with Ca Mg K Fe and P S. => acid-bas balance.*) My practice
a) I take 1 drop MK4 (1 000 mcg) from Thorne Research MK-4 at breakfast, trying to get at least 25 g fat. At midday, I take 2 000 or 5 000 UI vit D3 (softgel) according to the season.
Note: To be optimal, I should take K2 MK4 twice a day (MK4 half-life lasts only a few hours; MK7 lasts 72 hours).
b) Once a week I take 10 000 UI retinol palmitate (vitamin A), as 1st take of the day.
C) Once a week I take a mix with K1 K2 MK4 & MK7 (High dose).Useful link
*) Vit K Mk4 Vs Mk7 update 02 2020
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t1704-vit-k-mk4-vs-mk7-update-02-2020#21497
Absorption, stockage, biodisponibilité et tissus cibles des ménaquinones (K2)
Dosage thérapeutique de la vitamine K
Exemples pour achat de vitamine K2
*) Vitamines liposolubles A, D, E, K. Which proportions?
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t665-vitamines-liposolubles-a-d-e-k-quelles-proportions#5910
The optimal ratio of Vit A to Vit D is between 4/1 and 8/1. Between 4 and 8 times more vit A than vit D.
No more than 10 000 UI in once or 3 000 UI per day. âIt appears that the effect of vitamin A on thyroid function is a U-shaped curve; too little causes problems but too much can also be harmful depending on the individual patientâs pituitary and thyroid status.â
Source: Learning & Healthy Living. âVitamin A: Underappreciated Role in Thyroid Healthâ. 2016 -
@GRay 2mg 3x a week is probably totally safe
studies in osteoporosis use 15mg 3x a day
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thanks for the material. Basically, you are taking 7mg of mk4 weekly plus whatever in your high dose combo of Vitamin K correct? do you take supplemental Ca at all?
I think RP recommends more than 850mg Ca, but to my understanding it depends on the ratio of Ca to Phosphorus. For example, I need a total of 1500mg Ca to keep my ratio to phosphorus I believe at 1:1 or 1:2, I totally forgot what is the ratio goal.
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@sunsunsun thank you.
Basically, I'm gathering that for general health purposes, Mk4 should be supplemented at 1mg per day.
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I'm looking at Ratio of Ca to mk4 in aged cheese and Milk.
Parmesan cheese has a ratio of about 250mg Ca to 15mcg mk4.
Milk has even less.I guess the 1mg daily estimate is probably a generous amount then
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@GRay said in mk4 dosing?:
I think RP recommends more than 850mg Ca, but to my understanding it depends on the ratio of Ca to Phosphorus. For example, I need a total of 1500mg Ca to keep my ratio to phosphorus I believe at 1:1 or 1:2, I totally forgot what is the ratio goal.
Ca supplement
*) RP target
If I remember well, RP's advice was between 850 â 1200 mg Ca, with the ratio P / Ca being the most important (see details beneath): Ratio P / Ca close to 1 â 2.2What difference between calcium and phosphorus would be acceptable?
For a Ca:P ratio of 1-2.2, a difference of about 1:1 to 2:1 is generally considered acceptable (if temporary situation),with a 2:1 ratio often cited as ideal (Ca:P), especially for bone health. A ratio of 1.5:1 to 2:1 is also commonly recommended. Deviations from this range, particularly a higher phosphorus intake relative to calcium, can negatively impact calcium absorption and bone health.
Mind when eating some kind of hard cheese if youâve eaten 5 oz. beefsteak the meal before or after. (acid-base balance). Hard cheeses like Cheddar, Parmesan, and Gruyere are generally good sources of calcium.
However, the P content can also be relatively high, so moderation is key to maintaining a healthy Ca:P ratio.
Weâll have to balance Na:K too when eating hard cheese.
*) Example:
A 1-ounce serving (28 g) of Gouda cheese has 101 calories, 7.1 grams of protein, 7.8 grams of fat, and 232 milligrams of sodium. When I eat Gouda 1.5 â 2 g salt => 625 â 833 mg Na. One slice Gouda for vitamin K2.
Macronutrients and minerals for 1 slice Gouda cheese 50 g ; from Cronometer.com:
178 K/cal.
P12.5 L13.7/8.8 G0
PUFA: 0.2
Ca350 P273 Na 409
K2 1.2 mcg*) Range target set in Cronometer log for calcium: 850 â 1200 mg.
I generally aim for 80% of my goals. Don't be too strict (in order to avoid orthorexia-like behavior).
*) Special case
Last evening, when I controlled my food intake on Cronometer.com (gold version), I saw I was under 500 mg Ca, Ÿ for Mg and a bit lower for K.
For my evening meal, I ate 2 fruits, one biscuit (dried waffle 22 g) and 4 oz. beef.
Daily fiber 25 g. Target at 25-30 g. I didn't want to cook (weather too hot + laziness).
*) Undertaken correction (3 hours after the last meal)
One shake water with supplement in powder:- 1 dose phosphacal 1 g: 146 mg P, 191 mg Ca. (optimal ratio 1/1.3 according to nutrixeal.com)
- 1 dose potassium bicarbonate 3.2 g: 1248 mg K
- Ÿ dose magnesium bisglycinate powder. Ÿ of 200 mg Mg.
1 dose = 2.5 g = 10 ml, or 200 mg of elemental Mg per dose. 18% Mg and 55% glycine per 100 g.
*) Alternative Ca
When I eat rhubarb or spinach â only in this caseâI take one tablet calcium citrate to capture oxalate (kidney stones => lithiasis prevention). Not the ideal excipient (Kal Calcium Citrate 1000: with Mg stearate) but from time to time, itâs OK for me.
=> Ca citrate 1585 mg: 333 mg Ca (21% Ca) (big tablet, difficult to swallow if without fat).
NB: Iâve calcium citrate powder too (Now Foods). I preferably use powder but not when I need a high level citrate in once.*) Phosphorus / calcium ratio
1/1 to 1/1.3 for Ray Peat.
Less if you eat meat with broccoli for Chris Masterjohn.
Why? Meat has amino acids that help you absorb calcium better from your diet.
Excerpts (from Chris Masterjohn):- âSo, you have processed foods = bad, meat = neutral, dairy products = good, in terms of affecting the balance of vitamin D, calcium, and phosphorus. So, the reasons for that, probably has something to do with the forms of phosphorus that are added to the food. They might be much more absorbable than the phosphorus from natural food.
Meat isnât just providing phosphorus, itâs also facilitating better calcium status when itâs consumed in the context of a mixed dietâ. - So my opinion is (CM speaking), you know, shoot for the 1,000-milligram mark, you can probably get away with consuming maybe 600 or 700 milligrams of calcium if you optimize everything else."
Source: Chris Masterjohn has said in a post on âDecoding what your body needsâ
https://wellnessmama.com/podcast/256/
Useful links
*) Fructose and phosphorus
The ratio between Ca and P should be maximum 1/1, and in any case phosphorus should be lower than Ca, in the medium term.
Source: From Ray PEATâs article âPhosphate, activation, and agingâ
Excerpt:
"While fructose lowers intracellular phosphate, it also lowers the amount that the intestine absorbs from food (Kirchner, et al., 2008), and the Milne-Nielsen study suggests that it increases phosphate loss through the kidneys. The "anti-aging" protein, klotho, increases the ability of the kidneys to excrete phosphate (DĂ«rmaku-Sopjani, et al., 2011), and like fructose, it supports energy production and maintains thermogenesis (Mori, et al., 2000).âUseful link (in French, Translator needed)
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t1646-cles-pour-comprendre-le-fructose-quelle-place
*) Lowering inflammation by lowering excess phosphate
Interview of Ray PEAT PhD on KMUD Radio. 2012.
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t1646-cles-pour-comprendre-le-fructose-quelle-place#20235Optimal calcium intake 520 - 840 mg for RP.
NB: Make the difference between the amount of calcium RP advised for others and what he got when drinking milk. He didnât mind the amount much, but rather the ratio between P and Ca, provided the sources were assimilated âŠ
That's another subject. -
@LucH my Ca needs to be at least 1600mg to get to 1:1 with Phosphorus. Basically, I need to supplement with 1000mg Ca, and I generally use grassfed living bone from ancestral, or cheese or a combo of the two.
Are you in France or US? if the latter where do you get your mk4?
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@GRay said in mk4 dosing?:
Basically, I need to supplement with 1000mg Ca, and I generally use grassfed living bone from ancestral, or cheese or a combo of the two.
Are you in France or US? if the latter where do you get your mk4?
Ok, right.
Remind we better absorb 4 x 250 mg Ca element than 2 x 500 mg when taking a supplement.
I live in Belgium. My MK4 comes from iherb.com in USA. Could be bought in France:
Thorn Research, liquid. Not cheap but high dose and proportionally not expensive if used as I do: 1 drop at breakfast, with minimum 25 g fat, most of the time. Otherwise, to be taken at another meal (14 - 25 - 35 g threshold).
I protect my bottle from light.Advise: I 'd take potassium bicarbonate powder, as well as potassium citrate. Alternate.
Mine come from France, la Compagnie du bicarbonate. I buy it in one Kg (2 pounds). - 1 kg potassium bicarbonate. 1 dose 3.2 g
1 kg sodium bicarbonate (NaHCOâ)
I use NaHCOâ in 2 ways: 1. To get rid of toxins from my fruits (pH 8.5 => 1 big tsp in water). (study, not from a post on internet) 2. when I make a cure with 2 g NaHCOâ to reset Th1 >< Th2.
