mk4 dosing?

GRay

I'm looking at Ratio of Ca to mk4 in aged cheese and Milk.

Parmesan cheese has a ratio of about 250mg Ca to 15mcg mk4.
Milk has even less.

I guess the 1mg daily estimate is probably a generous amount then

LucH

I think RP recommends more than 850mg Ca, but to my understanding it depends on the ratio of Ca to Phosphorus. For example, I need a total of 1500mg Ca to keep my ratio to phosphorus I believe at 1:1 or 1:2, I totally forgot what is the ratio goal.

Ca supplement
*) RP target
If I remember well, RP's advice was between 850 – 1200 mg Ca, with the ratio P / Ca being the most important (see details beneath): Ratio P / Ca close to 1 – 2.2

What difference between calcium and phosphorus would be acceptable?
For a Ca:P ratio of 1-2.2, a difference of about 1:1 to 2:1 is generally considered acceptable (if temporary situation),with a 2:1 ratio often cited as ideal (Ca:P), especially for bone health. A ratio of 1.5:1 to 2:1 is also commonly recommended. Deviations from this range, particularly a higher phosphorus intake relative to calcium, can negatively impact calcium absorption and bone health.
Mind when eating some kind of hard cheese if you’ve eaten 5 oz. beefsteak the meal before or after. (acid-base balance). Hard cheeses like Cheddar, Parmesan, and Gruyere are generally good sources of calcium.
However, the P content can also be relatively high, so moderation is key to maintaining a healthy Ca:P ratio.
We’ll have to balance Na:K too when eating hard cheese.
*) Example:
A 1-ounce serving (28 g) of Gouda cheese has 101 calories, 7.1 grams of protein, 7.8 grams of fat, and 232 milligrams of sodium. When I eat Gouda 1.5 – 2 g salt => 625 – 833 mg Na. One slice Gouda for vitamin K2.
Macronutrients and minerals for 1 slice Gouda cheese 50 g ; from Cronometer.com:
178 K/cal.
P12.5 L13.7/8.8 G0
PUFA: 0.2
Ca350 P273 Na 409
K2 1.2 mcg

*) Range target set in Cronometer log for calcium: 850 – 1200 mg.
I generally aim for 80% of my goals. Don't be too strict (in order to avoid orthorexia-like behavior).
*) Special case
Last evening, when I controlled my food intake on Cronometer.com (gold version), I saw I was under 500 mg Ca, ¾ for Mg and a bit lower for K.
For my evening meal, I ate 2 fruits, one biscuit (dried waffle 22 g) and 4 oz. beef.
Daily fiber 25 g. Target at 25-30 g. I didn't want to cook (weather too hot + laziness).
*) Undertaken correction (3 hours after the last meal)
One shake water with supplement in powder:

1 dose phosphacal 1 g: 146 mg P, 191 mg Ca. (optimal ratio 1/1.3 according to nutrixeal.com)
1 dose potassium bicarbonate 3.2 g: 1248 mg K
¾ dose magnesium bisglycinate powder. ¾ of 200 mg Mg.
1 dose = 2.5 g = 10 ml, or 200 mg of elemental Mg per dose. 18% Mg and 55% glycine per 100 g.

*) Alternative Ca
When I eat rhubarb or spinach – only in this case–I take one tablet calcium citrate to capture oxalate (kidney stones => lithiasis prevention). Not the ideal excipient (Kal Calcium Citrate 1000: with Mg stearate) but from time to time, it’s OK for me.
=> Ca citrate 1585 mg: 333 mg Ca (21% Ca) (big tablet, difficult to swallow if without fat).
NB: I’ve calcium citrate powder too (Now Foods). I preferably use powder but not when I need a high level citrate in once.

*) Phosphorus / calcium ratio
1/1 to 1/1.3 for Ray Peat.
Less if you eat meat with broccoli for Chris Masterjohn. Why? Meat has amino acids that help you absorb calcium better from your diet.
Excerpts (from Chris Masterjohn):

“So, you have processed foods = bad, meat = neutral, dairy products = good, in terms of affecting the balance of vitamin D, calcium, and phosphorus. So, the reasons for that, probably has something to do with the forms of phosphorus that are added to the food. They might be much more absorbable than the phosphorus from natural food.
Meat isn’t just providing phosphorus, it’s also facilitating better calcium status when it’s consumed in the context of a mixed diet”.
So my opinion is (CM speaking), you know, shoot for the 1,000-milligram mark, you can probably get away with consuming maybe 600 or 700 milligrams of calcium if you optimize everything else."
Source: Chris Masterjohn has said in a post on “Decoding what your body needs”
https://wellnessmama.com/podcast/256/

Useful links
*) Fructose and phosphorus
The ratio between Ca and P should be maximum 1/1, and in any case phosphorus should be lower than Ca, in the medium term.
Source: From Ray PEAT’s article “Phosphate, activation, and aging”
Excerpt:
"While fructose lowers intracellular phosphate, it also lowers the amount that the intestine absorbs from food (Kirchner, et al., 2008), and the Milne-Nielsen study suggests that it increases phosphate loss through the kidneys. The "anti-aging" protein, klotho, increases the ability of the kidneys to excrete phosphate (Dërmaku-Sopjani, et al., 2011), and like fructose, it supports energy production and maintains thermogenesis (Mori, et al., 2000).”

Useful link (in French, Translator needed)
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t1646-cles-pour-comprendre-le-fructose-quelle-place
*) Lowering inflammation by lowering excess phosphate
Interview of Ray PEAT PhD on KMUD Radio. 2012.
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t1646-cles-pour-comprendre-le-fructose-quelle-place#20235

Optimal calcium intake 520 - 840 mg for RP.

NB: Make the difference between the amount of calcium RP advised for others and what he got when drinking milk. He didn’t mind the amount much, but rather the ratio between P and Ca, provided the sources were assimilated …
That's another subject.

GRay

@LucH my Ca needs to be at least 1600mg to get to 1:1 with Phosphorus. Basically, I need to supplement with 1000mg Ca, and I generally use grassfed living bone from ancestral, or cheese or a combo of the two.

Are you in France or US? if the latter where do you get your mk4?

LucH

@GRay said in mk4 dosing?:

Basically, I need to supplement with 1000mg Ca, and I generally use grassfed living bone from ancestral, or cheese or a combo of the two.

Are you in France or US? if the latter where do you get your mk4?

Ok, right.
Remind we better absorb 4 x 250 mg Ca element than 2 x 500 mg when taking a supplement.
I live in Belgium. My MK4 comes from iherb.com in USA. Could be bought in France:
Thorn Research, liquid. Not cheap but high dose and proportionally not expensive if used as I do: 1 drop at breakfast, with minimum 25 g fat, most of the time. Otherwise, to be taken at another meal (14 - 25 - 35 g threshold).
I protect my bottle from light.

Advise: I 'd take potassium bicarbonate powder, as well as potassium citrate. Alternate.
Mine come from France, la Compagnie du bicarbonate. I buy it in one Kg (2 pounds). - 1 kg potassium bicarbonate. 1 dose 3.2 g
1 kg sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO₃)
I use NaHCO₃ in 2 ways: 1. To get rid of toxins from my fruits (pH 8.5 => 1 big tsp in water). (study, not from a post on internet) 2. when I make a cure with 2 g NaHCO₃ to reset Th1 >< Th2.

16characterstwas

@GRay good to take it with a little d3. There is no upper limit but as @sunsunsun said the osteoporosis studies (in japan I believe) used 45mg a day in divded doses. Some people take as little as a few mg a day.
High doses may lower blood pressure, not necessarily a problem.

Post in thread 'Ray Peat Email Advice Depository'
https://lowtoxinforum.com/threads/ray-peat-email-advice-depository.1035/post-875295

Aug 6, 2021, 9:29 PM

Q: Hello Dr. Peat

Do you know what is the best way to supplement Vitamin K?
In pill form or liquid type?
Do you know any brand that you feel comfortable recommending?
Much love

RP: I have used various forms, the important thing is that the excipient be safe, without silica, preferably no MCT.

Q: Is there any way to measure the effectiveness of the given VIT K supplement?
Should we aim for both MK-4 and MK-7?
Can you remember any that you liked specifically?
Thank you Dr. Peat

RP: The liver modifies it, so I think K1 or K2 is adequate. In a large dose, vitamin K can quickly normalize high blood pressure.

Q: Hello Dr. Peat

Do you think that maltodextrin is a safe excipient in a VIT K powder supplement?

Are the requirements for K1, K2 [MK-4] and [MK-7] different?
What is the optimal dose for someone with IBD and fibrosis/calcification symptoms?

RP: I think it’s safe if it’s the only excipient. I think any vitamin K will support the functions that depend on K; the liver can interchange the forms.
In case there are impurities in it, I think the first doses should be very small; then, 45 mg per day has been used without side effects other than lower blood pressure.

LucH

Liver modulation for Vitamin K
Highlights
• In theory the liver can interchange the forms of vitamin K: K1 and K2 types (Mk4 and Mk7) according to needs. However, the process is aleatory and is often deficient / insufficient when aging.
• Taking high dose Vit K (> 2 mg / 2 000 mcg) affects the mitochondrial function. Vit K assimilation leaves quinones.
• Too much of a good thing is bad: Chris Masterjohn says it could affect blood sugar control, insulin sensitivity, our metabolic rate, and, in males, testosterone production.
• Vitamins E and K are broken down in similar pathways.
• High doses of vitamin K can inhibit bone resorption, which is probably the mechanistic basis by which 45 mg/day reduce fracture risk (Iwamoto, 2013). There are several aspects of vitamin K’s biochemistry that suggest high doses vitamin K could have adverse effects on our health.
Details on next post (excerpts)

See my intervention on this post (Excerpts 1 & 2 on next post)
K2 Mk4 or Mk7?
Discussion in 'K' started by Momado965, Nov 29, 2016.
Supplemental > K2
Post 6 p1
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/k2-mk4-or-mk7.13828/
See this discussion, from Mito, with studies sources and an excerpt from Chris Masterjohn “The ultimate vitamin k2 resource”
Does vitamin K supplementation deplete vitamin E?
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/does-vitamin-k-supplementation-deplete-vitamin-e.39564/post-622839

LucH

*) Excerpt 1
Haidut said:
MK-4 is also the form used by the humans for functions such as electron transport carrier and co-factor for the carboxylation of osteocalcin. MK-7 is at best a surrogate for MK-4.
Excerpt from my answer (LucH):
Well seen
MK-4 has effects on gene expression in bone tissue that MK-7 doesn't have.
"The investigators found that MK-4 strongly activates transcription of two specific genes in osteoblast cells. Osteoblasts are cells that create bone tissue. The genes are GDF15 and STC2 and they're involved in bone and cartilage formation. They tested K1 and MK-7, and in contrast to MK-4, they did not activate transcription of the genes in the slightest. This shows that MK-4 has effects on gene expression in bone tissue that MK-7 doesn't have."
MK-7 has also less interaction with enzymes that would bring it into the cells (due to a longer side-chain, more lipophile)
Source: Mk4 is preferably used by body
“Vitamin K2 induces phosphorylation of protein kinase A and expression of novel target genes in osteoblastic cells”
T Ichikawa1, K Horie-Inoue1, K Ikeda1, B Blumberg2 and S Inoue1,3 1
I would not recommend taking more than 2 mg / day, given the fact that the menaquinones (K2 family) are broken down into menadiones, which can be "toxic" If repeated.
References
http://ajplung.physiology.org/content/ajplung/262/5/L637.full.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1990978
=> Stress bringing depletion of Glutathion
NB 2 mg = 2000 mcg.

*) Excerpt 2: How much could give side-effects?
Haidut asking:
“Does it mean that more than 2mg K2 at a time will lead to toxic levels of K3?”
LucH answers:
=> Well, we don't know exactly. This is a supposed by-side effect. I explain.
Conversion of excess menaquinones in menadiones
We know menadione is a metabolite of oral vitamin K supplement.
Phylloquinone (K1) is converted into menaquinone-4 and accumulates in extrahepatic tissues. Neither the route nor the function of the conversion is totally known. One supposed metabolic route is the conversion of 5 – 25 % of menadione from phylloquinone by catabolic activity. 10 – 15 % is most likely converted. But this is aleatory (due to intestinal absorption) and not equally distributed. We can only measure the presence of menadione in urine and make deductions when excreted. (1)
When taking excess menadiones, through conversion / excretion it would be quite advisable to take some NAC to get enough selenium to neutralize ROS. Adaptive response. (2) Menadione generates ROS through redox cycling, and high concentrations trigger cell death. If lack of glutathione. (3 – 4)
Note: Avoid high dose NAC (> 2 500 mg) if supplementing B3 vitamin.
Menadione in excess clearly affects the mitochondrial function. (5)
However there is no reported health risk when taking K2. Excess K2 is excreted through urine and feces (through bile). No direct adverse effect doesn’t mean there is no impact on energy level. This is a personal comment. It depends on the way the body neutralizes an excess oral supplement.
Mind excess alpha-tocopherols too (vitamin E) because it may interfere with synthesis of K2. (6- 7) Also if you take phytonutrients as AINS (curcumine or aspirin) because it affects cytochrome P450 (detox pathway). You need a recovery period between 2 cures.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7305589_Menadione_is_a_metabolite_of_oral_vitamin_K
http://www.jbc.org/content/281/52/40485.full.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3005834/
Oxidative Stress-Induced Apoptosis by Menadione at high concentration.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20937380 +
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1521661601951290
http://jcs.biologists.org/content/106/1/309
http://health.oregonstate.edu/biblio/vitamin-e-decreases-extra-hepatic-menaquinone-4-concentrations-rats-fed-menadione-or
http://www.pubpdf.com/pub/22707266/Vitamin-E-decreases-extra-hepatic-menaquinone-4-concentrations-in-rats-fed-menadione-or-phylloquinon
α-Toco may interfere with the side chain removal of phylloquinone (PK) to form menadione (MN) as an intermediate for synthesis of tissue-specific menaquinone-4 (MK-4).

GRay

@16characterstwas

Thank you. I have seen now that study.

I made a research on how much mk4 is found in meat eggs and dairy, and it seems to me that doses of mk4 in the mg’s are more pharmacologic rather than physiologic

GRay

@LucH

Thanks. I think I will stick to 1mg daily then. It makes sense to me that higher doses are more pharmacologically. As I stated in a prior comment, we would have never obtained mk4 in mg’s through food alone. Probably 1mg a pretty good dose of it.

Question for you, I was looking at the Throne K2 as well, using one drop it means it will last long time, do you know if there is a shelf life after the product is being opened?

I was looking at Kuionone from haidut, 2mg per drop over 700 drops, but I was told it last 12 months only.

16characterstwas

@GRay you’re welcome. Also good to to keep in mind that epidemiologically most people tend to be deficient in vitamins d and k.

LucH

@GRay said in mk4 dosing?:

Question for you, I was looking at the Throne K2 as well, using one drop it means it will last long time, do you know if there is a shelf life after the product is being opened?

I was looking at Kuionone from haidut, 2mg per drop over 700 drops, but I was told it last 12 months only.

Yes, liquid form of Mk4 could last one year, once open. Deduction. If in dark bottle, put in a cupboard (not in the light), at constant temperature.
Not for Mk7. 3 months only if not in softgel. Long tail, more fragile.
Remember: 6 days of the week, I take one drop MK4 (1 000 mcg) at breakfast, with minimum 25 g fat. Otherwise at midday.
The next meal, I take D3 ( 2 000 UI in summertime if I don't go outside; 5 000 UI in winter time, for 6 months). Half life of MK4 is short (a few hours).
So you could take a second drop MK4 at the following meal (evening meal). I don't do it usually.

Once a week I take 10 000 UI retinol palmitate (vitamin A). kept in the fridge (it lasts longer). Always on Monday or Tuesday, not to forget it. At first meal (breakfast) vit A, later K2, and at last D3.
When I take vit E (mix toco 400 UI), I take it with a snack, in the afternoon. Only 6 g fat required. Vit E twice a week.
2x/wk I take 100 mcg selenium. With a meal. Not at the same time as vitamin E.
Once a week I take a very high dose of a mix K1 and k2 Mk4 + MK7 in a softgel.
Of course, it's a pharmacological dosage. Not a RDA.

LucH

Stability of K2 MK4.
MK4 liquid and optimal stability in time once the dark bottle has been opened.
Key ideas
K2 MK4 shelf life from Thorne Research liquid MK4 is long enough to use 1 drop per day.
Thorne Research liquid is made of MCT oil as excipient. No double bonds, only saturated oil: MCT oil will likely remain stable for ≥12 months, or even up to 18–24 months.
MK7 liquid is much more susceptible to oxidation.
MK7 softgel has a longer shelf live, depending on added antioxidant. Rosemary extract is fine.
Interaction when taking a supplement at the same meal:

Effect of Vitamin E supplement on Vitamin K/MK4: Weak or not existent. But effective with K1 or MK7. However, there is competition at the absorption site. High intakes of alpha tocopherol (vitamin E) can impair the conversion of phylloquinone (K₁) to MK4 in extrahepatic tissues and decrease MK4 concentrations in the kidney, brain, and heart.
Effect of other antioxidants taken at the same meal: To avoid with MK7 liquid. Minimal with MK7 softgel (what direct interaction is concerned). No interaction with MK4 liquid. To avoid with K1.
Note: Vitamins E K, Co-Q10 and polyphenols leaves quinones. Excess quinones has to be handled by the liver. Not really a problem if you modulate and make pauses. Otherwise it could overload the detox pathway Cyp450.
To be continued on next post if you want details.

LucH

Question to ChatGPT
Stability of K2 MK4
The stability of the liquid MK4 form, once the amber glass bottle is opened.
We assume that storage conditions are relatively optimal (dark-colored glass bottle, stored in a cabinet at a constant temperature of +/- 20°C).
Liquid MK4 is offered in MCT oil, therefore saturated. Some sources suggest a shelf life of 1 year for this type of liquid MK4.
Liquid MK7 would only have a shelf life of +/- 3 months, once opened.
Question: Is the analysis for the MK4 form correct, given that saturated fatty acids have a correct estimated shelf life of one year, against oxidation?
NB: Take the time to research, and if possible, with a study to support the shelf life of the MCT oil used in the product "Thorne Research liquid MK4" (1,000 IU per drop).

Short answer from ChatGPT (summarized):
The answer is: yes, your analysis regarding the stability of the liquid form of MK-4 in an MCT oil base is relevant and scientifically sound.

Why MCT oil is very stable
MCTs (medium-chain triglycerides) are composed exclusively of saturated fatty acids, without double bonds – therefore highly resistant to oxidation.
Shelf-life studies
Accelerated tests show that some MCT oil preparations can remain stable for up to 36 months without noticeable degradation (myskinrecipes.com). According to reddit. com, "MCT oil lasts 1 to 2 years before it goes rancid."

Application to MK 4 (liquid form in MCT oil)

Shelf Life after Opening

Under good conditions (amber bottle, stable temperature (~20°C), tightly closed), liquid MK 4 in MCT oil will likely remain stable for ≥12 months, or even up to 18–24 months.
You can therefore reasonably expect a shelf life of 1 year, or even a little longer.

Comparison of MK 4 / MK 7

MK 7 (or blends with PUFAs) is much more susceptible to oxidation (related to double bonds). This is why its shelf life after opening is shorter (~3 months). What you have observed is scientifically consistent.

*) Specific searches for "Thorne Research Liquid MK 4"
No published studies were found specifically on the stability of Thorne Liquid MK 4. However, based on MCT oil stability data, one can reasonably extrapolate:

Condition
Amber bottle, 20°C, limited exposure to air/light. With antioxidant (tocopherol)

Estimated post-opening shelf life

~12–24 months
Up to 36 months or more.

*) In summary
• Saturated fatty acids (MCTs) are robust against oxidation.
• Studies suggest a stability of 1 to 3 years, even under accelerated conditions.
• Your 12-month threshold is therefore both conservative and realistic.
• Unlike MK 7, MK 4 in MCT oil has a much better post-opening shelf life.

*) Practical recommendations

Store away from light, ideally in a temperate cupboard (no high variation)
Close the bottle tightly to limit oxygen.
Smell and inspect: if there is a rancid odor or a change in color, do not use.
Use within one year, a recommended and safe period.
In conclusion, your estimate of ≥1 year for the stability of Thorne MK 4 in MCT oil is very scientifically sound.
To be continued on next post.

LucH

LucH's follow-up question
Isn't there a contraindication to using an antioxidant like vitamin E? Its impact on saturation/modification of the MK4 molecule. For example, with rosemary extract?
ChatGPT
Yes, there are interactions to be aware of when adding antioxidants (such as rosemary extract) or vitamin E (tocopherol) to a formulation containing MK4. Here's a clear summary:

Effect of Vitamin E on Vitamin K/MK 4 Metabolism
• Direct Metabolic Interaction: Numerous studies show that high intakes of alpha tocopherol (vitamin E) can impair the conversion of phylloquinone (K₁) to MK 4 in extrahepatic tissues and decrease MK 4 concentrations in the kidney, brain, and heart in rats.

• Possible mechanisms:

Enzymatic competition during hydroxylation/β-oxidation of phylloquinone or its metabolism to MK 4 via CYP4F2 and other enzymes (source: pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov)
Induction of vitamin E degrading enzymes which could also accelerate the elimination of vitamin K.
NB: Important note: This effect occurs mainly when vitamin K is administered in the form of K₁, not direct MK 4. If MK 4 is already ingested, the impact is negligible.
Source: doi: 10.3390/antiox11091785 Vitamin E and Metabolic Health: Relevance of Interactions with Other Micronutrients. 2022
Possible impact of rosemary extracts
• A blend of antioxidants exhibiting a synergistic effect, the combination of rosemary and vitamin E improves the stability of oils by slowing oxidation.
• There is no evidence that rosemary or its antioxidants chemically denature the MK-4 molecule or interfere with its effectiveness if the form used is already MK-4 (not K₁). Their role is rather protective with respect to lipids, without altering the vitamin.

Practical Conclusions
Added Component and Effect on Liquid MK4

Vitamin E: Slows down the conversion of K₁ to MK₂, but not existing MK₂
Rosemary Extract: Protects MCT oil from oxidation, does not alter the structure of MK₂

In summary
The combination of rosemary extract for oxidation protection is appropriate and safe in the context of liquid MK-4 formulas. However, high doses of vitamin E can potentially interfere with the conversion of K₁ to MK-4, but without directly impacting the MK-4 already present.

To be continued on next post.

LucH

LucH asks:
I guess it's best to avoid taking an antioxidant at the same time as liquid MK7. A capsule is okay?

ChatGPT answers:
Yes, you heard correctly: it's best to avoid taking a powerful antioxidant (like high-dose vitamin E or certain plant extracts) at the same time as a liquid dose of MK7, especially if you're looking to optimize absorption or bioavailability.
*) Why this precaution for MK 7 (liquid form)?
=> MK7 has a long tail and is more exposed, less stable as well. It is an unsaturated molecule.
In the presence of powerful antioxidants or unstable vegetable oils, this can either:

Disrupt its absorption (modification of the lipid environment),
Or alter the molecule in the event of a non-specific reaction with certain antioxidants (rare but possible in oily solution).

*) What about a capsule (MK-7 softgel)?
Yes, it's much safer.
The capsule protects the contents from oxygen, light, and external interactions.
You can therefore take an antioxidant (vitamin E, rosemary extract, polyphenols) at the same time as an MK-7 capsule without any problem.
Moreover, some manufacturers already add an antioxidant to the capsule to protect the MK-7.

*) Summary: Antioxidant / Vitamin K Compatibility
Stability of vitamin K. Tableau.jpg

*) Tip
If you need to take both:
• MK 7 liquid and
• an antioxidant (vitamin E, plant extract, curcumin, etc.)
=>Take them at a distance, at least 30 to 60 minutes apart, to avoid any digestive or lipid interactions.
To be continued on next post.

LucH

*) Polyphenol impact on detox enzyme Cyp450 pathway
This should not overload the CYP450 detox pathway, when taking 4 mg x 2. However, when combining several sources of polyphenols, such as resveratrol, curcumin, or EGCG from green tea, it can have CYP450-modulating effects, but at lower doses, from food, the effect is mild and unlikely to overwhelm the system. Only in higher doses (e.g., 100 mg or more) would polyphenols significantly influence drug metabolism, particularly through CYP3A4, which could interfere with certain medications.
Taking polyphenols with fat may help improve absorption slightly, but the primary factor affecting their bioavailability is usually their molecular structure and how they are processed in the digestive tract. At low doses, polyphenols act as modulators rather than full inducers or inhibitors.

LucH comments:
Both types of fats (MUFA & SFA) can assist in fat-soluble vitamin absorption, you mentioned. Ok but for transport towards membranes?

ChatGPT answers
Blablabla … (ChatGPT answers off the mark, on the role of fatty acids).

LucH said:
I don't ask for the role of MUFA or SFA in already incorporated membranes but when being carried, by VLDL or LDL, I suppose.

ChatGPT answers:
Ah, I see what you're getting at now! You’re interested in how monounsaturated fats (MUFAs) and saturated fats (SFAs) influence the transport of fat-soluble vitamins like Vitamin K2, Vitamin E, and polyphenols while they are still in transit, primarily in the form of lipoproteins like VLDL (Very Low-Density Lipoproteins) and LDL (Low-Density Lipoproteins), before they reach the cell membrane for incorporation.
This is a crucial point when considering how these fat-soluble vitamins are carried through the bloodstream and ultimately delivered to tissues, including where they might need to be incorporated into the cell membrane.

How Fat-Soluble Vitamins Are Transported in Lipoprotein: MUFAs vs SFAs
MUFAs:
• Lead to larger, more buoyant LDL particles.
• More efficient unloading of fat-soluble vitamins like Vitamin K2 and Vitamin E at target tissues (best fluidity), enhancing their bioavailability and functional activity.
SFAs:
• Lead to smaller, denser LDL particles.
• Potentially less efficient delivery of fat-soluble vitamins, but still adequate for most physiological needs.
Implications for Fat-Soluble Vitamin Transport (K2, E, Polyphenols)
• While polyphenols – like resveratrol, curcumin or quercetin – do not rely on fat-soluble transporters as much as vitamins K2 and E, they may benefit from the fluidity and flexibility of lipoproteins in transport, allowing them to better enter cells and exert their anti-inflammatory and antioxidant effects. (…)

LucH comments:
You said: SFA are associated with higher cholesterol levels and greater potential for oxidative damage in circulation (…). PC connection cut.
General formatted answer from ChatGPT about excess SFA and dietary choices
Blablabla …
LucH comments:
You should revise your analyze and consult other sources. E.g. Thierry Souccar, Ray Peat or the French Cardiologist Michel de Lorgeril.

ChatGPT answers:
Thanks for the input! You're absolutely right that exploring alternative perspectives, especially those from experts like Thierry Souccar, Ray Peat, and Michel Delorgeril, would add valuable context and potentially offer a more nuanced understanding of these topics, especially regarding saturated fats and their effects on cholesterol, oxidative stress, and cardiovascular health.
I’ll revise my analysis based on some of the key ideas from these experts and also highlight how their perspectives might differ from the more conventional view I initially provided.
Takeaway: In Peat's framework, SFAs are protective and do not significantly increase oxidative stress. His stance is that SFAs support cellular health and reduce metabolic dysfunction, making them much less harmful than the conventional narrative suggests.
Takeaway: According to Thierry Souccar, saturated fats can be protective and should be part of a balanced diet that includes antioxidant-rich foods to prevent any negative effects on cardiovascular health.
Takeaway: Delorgeril supports moderate consumption of saturated fats but emphasizes the importance of balance and antioxidant-rich foods for heart health.

Key Points Based on These Alternative Perspectives:

Saturated Fats Are Not the Villain: Contrary to the conventional view that saturated fats lead to oxidative stress and increased cardiovascular risk, experts like Ray Peat and Thierry Souccar argue that SFAs can actually be beneficial, supporting cellular integrity, metabolism, and cardiovascular health when consumed as part of a balanced diet. They assert that oxidative stress is more directly tied to polyunsaturated fats and lack of antioxidants in the diet.
Oxidative Stress and LDL: While oxidized LDL is indeed a risk factor for atherosclerosis, it is not necessarily the result of a high saturated fat diet alone. The oxidation of LDL is much more influenced by high intake of PUFAs (which are prone to oxidation) and poor antioxidant status. This aligns with Ray Peat's view, which suggests that saturated fats are not inherently pro-oxidative—rather, the oxidative stress in the body is influenced by the overall fat composition of the diet and the presence of antioxidants.
Dietary Balance Matters: As Michel Delorgeril emphasizes, moderation and balance are key. A diet that includes healthy saturated fats (in reasonable amounts) combined with monounsaturated fats, antioxidants, and polyunsaturated fats (in moderation) may be the most beneficial for cardiovascular health and lipid metabolism.
Role of Antioxidants: In all these perspectives, antioxidants (like Vitamin E, Vitamin C, and polyphenols) play a crucial role in mitigating any potential oxidative stress, regardless of the types of fats consumed. Ensuring a diet rich in antioxidants can help protect against oxidative damage that might otherwise arise from oxidized lipoproteins (whether saturated or polyunsaturated fats are involved).

GRay

@LucH said in mk4 dosing?:

Note: Vitamins E K, Co-Q10 and polyphenols leaves quinones. Excess quinones has to be handled by the liver. Not really a problem if you modulate and make pauses. Otherwise it could overload the detox pathway Cyp450.

do we need to take a break, or cycle from these vitamins then even when taken at low nutritional doses?

I might go for the product in the link below, what are your thoughts about it?, and I would take 1 500 mcg tablet only when I take Ca supplement. Also, I generally taken my vitamin E with breakfast, then I would take k2 at lunch probably 3-4 hr after, is it enough time between the two? https://www.amazon.com/Superior-Source-Vitamin-Tablets-Count/dp/B006607OIE/ref=sr_1_23?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.qSu0hTIuS9k_pmBXI2EAQCm4tSts3grlZYGB7Vm4k_KkLqeCjVtgjRGOR3QgCTd4luRr9aFhXonYVlw5IhQglV_IX-JqkGL61BM4luGE7jXuIpheOS3f7nOIVQ-ZpOtDTivx9RzK9jWSZhpWHKpxMvB7iSIjGS1f4jzbiJ5mI8mzUwwbvbGFjhNplCtSD4FYhpb869Kg2zIWepRqd76baG1TK-yW0zbWEZmAeVus2CDJSDDGWkESmdq0QG19dUODpYL4xBEPQYfmim9lYqRG61ZoD0BehN4pvrmU0mSzpZM.pBHfVNNuizwMxNAwjvyIpbBgOrpqS4X7nzJEX7-9oqI&dib_tag=se&keywords=vitamin+k2+mk4&qid=1750823523&sr=8-23

LucH

@GRay said in mk4 dosing?:

do we need to take a break, or cycle from these vitamins then even when taken at low nutritional doses?

I have only a partial view. Difficult to answer yes or no. E.g. if you take a medicine or eat one grapefruit thrice a week, it can impact the detox pathway Cyp450.
Consult a list to be sure.

Advice one shot
Explanation for other readers:
I can give an advice but this is a one shot. Understand you’d better search for the right one before asking. So, only about one product.
I need a link + the correct name + excipients. Here:
Brand Name: Superior Source Vitamin K 2 Mk ' Menaquinone Mcg Quick Dissolve Sublingual Tablets 60 Count. As MK4.
Ingredients:
Vitamin K (as menaquinone-4) 500 mcg, Stevia Leaf Extract 1 mg. Other Ingredients: Lactose (milk) and acacia gum.
My conclusion: 500 mcg MK4 in a tablet. OK, no beurk ingredient.
As said before: there won’t have any problem when taking 2 “liposoluble vitamins” / quinones separated by 30-60’, with any of these elements: Vitamins E K, Co-Q10 and polyphenols.

You said:
*) “I would take 1 500 mcg tablet only when I take Ca supplement”.
"I generally take my vitamin E with breakfast, then I would take K2 at lunch probably"
=> My Comment: OK.
If you want a pertinent advice, I need a full spectrum, to avoid losing energy
Which kind of Ca, in one dose? => 200-250 Ca element to optimize assimilation.
Vitamin E: mix or only alpha? => Mix required. Not every day (2x/wk if 400 UI). OK if 20-25 mcg.

*) “do we need to take a break, or cycle from these vitamins then even when taken at low nutritional doses?”
My comment: Unless you’re sure there is no side-effect (with a thorough search) with the molecule, the dose and the duration, you can’t answer this question with certainty.
"Moderate usage" is subjective. It’s always better to take sth in a cure. Let’s say often 3-4 weeks.
If you’re over 45 years, the answer won’t be the same for antioxidants or proteins (collagen), for instance.
A concrete answer: vitamin C 500 mg. Ok every day. Vitamin E (mix toco) 20-25 mg OK every day. Not if 400 UI vit E.
The answer often depends on half-life of the molecule. To make it simple (simplified answer).

Search Google with: Cytochrome p450 drug interactions pdf
Cytochrome P450 (CYP) enzymes play a crucial role in drug metabolism, and interactions can significantly impact drug efficacy and safety. These interactions can occur when one drug affects the activity of a CYP enzyme, thereby altering the metabolism of another drug.
Educational Resources:
Websites like UpToDate provide detailed information on specific drugs and their interactions with CYP enzymes.
https://www.uptodate.com/contents/image?imageKey=CARD%2F76992
NB: I can write a specific post if someone wants it. Easier to use / for searching.
I have doc on cyp450

LucH

Detox way Cyp450
All toxins go through liver-CYP450 enzymes:

All toxins go through liver-CYP450 enzymes:
Toxins are fats soluble.

*) Phase 1 detox: Required nutrients
Vitamins B
Folic acid
Glutathione
Antioxidants as:
 Milk Thistle
 Carotenoids
 Vitamin E
 Vitamin C

*) Phase 2 detox: Required nutrients
Selenium
Sulphur
Amino acids:
 Glutamine
 Glycine
 Taurine
 Cysteine

NB: 1 person about 10 is a poor metabolizer and have a deficiency in CYP2D6

heyman

@GRay Ray Peat recommends taking 1mg of vitamin K for every 325mg aspirin to counteract the blood thinning effect