Why is the Ray Peat community so far right?
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What yall are referring to as a typical leftists is a mirage. It's a caricature from a meme. Like the analysis never went past some random right wing click bait and there wasn't even enough effort to read a Wikipedia page (the bare minimum).
The west is not left. The west is right wing. The crisis of the west is the crisis of capitalism. The overtone window has gone so far right that folks think someone is left wing if they drink Starbucks and don't hate gay people. Basic social services is not left-wing, its guillotine insurance. There was no left wing economics in nazi germany, there was no democratization of the workplace, the ruling class still owned the means of production. Capitalism is the dictatorship of the rich and fascism is capitalism with the gloves off.
The right wing won in the west. There is a reason crushing left wing movements was priority #1 for military-industrial complex. The far right should be dancing, yall got yr utopia. This is it.
"People need to start understanding that the system is systematically murdering them, and understanding that the situation is desperate, they need to see that solidarity with life, against capital, is their hope." RP
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@Aryan_Racist Ray Peat radicalized many people during COVID Pandemic in a way that literally transcends the antiquated left-right political spectrum. The global geopolitical situation in the 21st century is obviously not the same as it was in the early 20th century, and hence the terms as they used to be applied are not at all relevant.
The situation now is largely about the 'wise' implementation of technology, who should control it, who decides what will be researched, to what ends will it be put, and what are the criteria that will be used in deciding all of the above. The globe is now slowly moving away from an 'open society' dominated by a monopoly of Gates-Soros invested enterprises towards inter-regional, nationalist BRICS+ type of initiatives. This impacts Peat's work because it involves a diversity of "scientific perspectives", if you will, coming from different languages, ideologies, cultures and even spiritual backgrounds which participate with greater influence internationally than when they were impoverished colonies (whatever opinion you may have about that).
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The far right section of RP world consists entirely of Charlie's idiot friends/sockpuppet accounts. So basically just one guy.
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@buckminster Wise words... We are living in neoliberal or even techno-feudal times...
It may be that people think that the West is "left" because of the current Woke influence...
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I don’t believe saying the original Rap Peat Forum attracting people on the right is fully correct. I believe it more accurate to say it attracts people who are anti-establishment. Ray Peat’s writings display a clear disdain for the medical establishment and provides for the reader an alternative to what it means to be healthy. Anyone who then believes that the current political/medical/social institutions are bad will be attracted to that, and thus it draws them in.
I disagree that healthy people veer to the right. The meme of a liberal being weak, beta, and a snowflake while the conservative is this strong macho character is a fantasy that lives in peoples heads. If we take a look at the average person who ascribes to either side of the political isle, we are probably going to see an obese diabetic, given the typical profile of your average American.
I do believe however that veganism does attract many people from the left, in that people in the left tend to think more so about the suffering of lower class, oppressed, disabled, weak, etc… and since our domestic animals could be considered in that category, many vegans will be leftist. Conservatives tend to take a more libertarian, might makes right view of things, so they will care very little for the fact that we breed, keep, and cull animals for food.
Consuming animals is very important for optimal health, and so a way of eating that promotes eating animals will be rejected by those on the left who are also vegan, and a bioenergétics way of eating will not attract those people.
Anti-establishment can be either a left or right wing trait, right? For instance, leftist anti-establishment person will veer towards anarch, and, a right anti-establishment will veer towards strong libertarianism.
Ultimately, I do feel as if the truly “healthy” person understands that their conditions for good health is inescapably tied with the environment and society around them, and thus will not seek to destroy or isolate themselves from it, but sustain, nourish, and improve it.
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@Runenight201 I agree with the first paragraph.
@Runenight201 said in Why is the Ray Peat community so far right?:
If we take a look at the average person who ascribes to either side of the political isle, we are probably going to see an obese diabetic, given the typical profile of your average American.
Yes, but this is an answer to the wrong question. The right question is "are healthy people predominantly right-wing?" and not "are unhealthy people on both sides?". To this we can suggest that healthy people tend to be right wing as testosterone therapy cause red shift in liberal men; and weightlifting and self-improvement, nowadays, is usually associated with right wing. So, it is pretty safe to say that healthy people are generally not left wing (either right or center).
The meme about beta males being left wing has a lot of truth in it, and your example of diabetic on either side of political spectrum does not contradict that.
@Runenight201 said in Why is the Ray Peat community so far right?:
Anti-establishment can be either a left or right wing trait, right?
Technically, yes, that is why "the old" left had a lot of strong anti-establishment views, but the general movement is now more occupied with gender, equality, etc. which is inherently pro-establishment. So, the answer is: mainstream left, no; niche left, yes.
One could say that the old left has waned from public view because it fulfilled its purpose of rebellion against racism, etc. and now moved to rebel against new topics like gender, as Uncle Ted has talked about. And so, the change is a natural progression rather than a political hijacking or neutering, as the leftist continue to "rebel".
If we consider left wing as anti-hierarchical and right wing as pro-hierarchical then Peatism can be appealing to both although inherently anti-hierarchical and thus left wing.
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I don’t think you can look at testosterone levels and then draw conclusions about overall health status from that. It’s a factor of health certainly, but there are many other things that factor into good health. Is the steroid blasting body builder healthy?
To properly assess this claim, of whether healthy people are predominately conservative, we’d have to agree on all the biomarkers of what it means to be healthy, and then take a statistical representative random sample from both sides of the political isle and run an analysis.
Anything short of that is pure speculation imo.
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@Runenight201 Ok, if so then, what you said before:
@Runenight201 said in Why is the Ray Peat community so far right?:
I disagree that healthy people veer to the right. The meme of a liberal being weak, beta, and a snowflake while the conservative is this strong macho character is a fantasy that lives in peoples heads.
is also a pure speculation.
I think that it is stupid to expected unbiased statistically-representative double blind peer reviewed studies for everything and it's clear to anyone caring to look that left wingers, nowadays, tend to be effeminate and women tend to be fat, ugly and drinking too much soy which definitely does not fit under the umbrella of "healthy" however you would like to define it.
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I can understand the frustration with needing studies to confirm everything, but it is far too easy to paint broad stroke generalizations based on biases of what we want to believe rather than an accurate reflection of reality. No one is free from bias, and science is the tool through which we can get objective answers to things.
My characterization of left/right is based on empirical fact of the percentage of obese and diabetic people in the United States, so I don’t believe it to be speculation.
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@Runenight201 said in Why is the Ray Peat community so far right?:
My characterization of left/right is based on empirical fact of the percentage of obese and diabetic people in the United States, so I don’t believe it to be speculation.
No, it is not. You said that you "disagree that healthy people veer to the right" which is a claim about the healthy people group. Your point about the percentage of obese and diabetic people in the United States is about an average right or left winger:
@Runenight201 said in Why is the Ray Peat community so far right?:
If we take a look at the average person who ascribes to either side of the political isle, we are probably going to see an obese diabetic, given the typical profile of your average American.
Your claim is about an average person, mine about the distribution of the groups. The former does not imply the latter. My claim is that only considering healthy people of either political side, on average, more of them are right wing. And vice versa, considering just unhealthy people, on average, more of them are left wing. Still, both groups can be distributed with mean at the average american diabetic.
So, according to your terms both our claims are just "speculation", although mine is better because its logical and validated by your observations of vegans being leftist and rightist being more individualistic.
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Great breakdown.
Without any data though, I would not judge health status of either group, and the need to determine who is “healthier” just reeks of tribalism to me. “My side” is healthy or correct or true or whatever other term you want to put down. I tend to lean with Jacque personally, where as the attempt to solve problems politically won’t get us anywhere, and not actually conducive towards improving our well-being.
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@Aryan_Racist Mainstream alternatives basically. There's a lot of people from the far right sphere on communities like Vertical Diet, Keto, Carnivore, etc.
It's a matter of not trusting the mainstream either because it is owned by jewish elites or because it is filled by dogmatic people towards science and authority (the later being also a complement to the former according to the far right spheres). -
@zawisza said in Why is the Ray Peat community so far right?:
If we consider left wing as anti-hierarchical and right wing as pro-hierarchical then Peatism can be appealing to both although inherently anti-hierarchical and thus left wing.
bingo.
Speaking of health stereotypes it wasn't long ago when fash was associated with fat, ugly, dysgenic folks - and they still are to an extent, just watch videos of klan rallies. Or how many people on fashy peat twitter have handles like incel88. Maybe folks aren't old enough to remember, but there was a veer towards far-right health culture, and it was probably because they had a bad reputation for being gross.
What folks think leftists look like is very indicative of someone who spends too much time on the computer. I have been involved in the left for 20 years and there are plenty of beautiful, strong, and healthy people. As a movement that has inclusivity as a principle, that looks out for the oppressed, and is against the subjugation of others - we attract all kinds of people, the disabled, the abused, the downtrodden- and that is a good thing.
The system is sick, and people are being harmed. It's important to take your health into your own hands but we have to look at the bigger picture, like peat describes the health problems are a political issue of a system designed to oppress.
"People need to start understanding that the system is systematically murdering them, and understanding that the situation is desperate, they need to see that solidarity with life, against capital, is their hope." RP
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"First, a person who is chronically sick and malnourished just doesn't have much energy or stamina to study and be critical. So first, you just have to stop poisoning yourself by eating what the government and dietitians
are selling as a healthful diet, and once you have the strength to read and think, then you realize who is doing what to you, and you start investigating the food industry, the agricultural production industry, the science industry that supports the agricultural imposition, and the political system that justifies the medical and agricultural economic imposition. All of these are very clearly wound together in a system to maintain class dominance. It started in the 1930s depression with the government having a three-tiered diet. One to prevent starvation in the very poor, one an economical diet to get along on very little, and then at the top a healthy diet."
-Ray Peat"People need to start understanding that the system is systematically murdering them, and understanding that the situation is desperate, they need to see that solidarity with life, against capital, is their hope." RP
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@buckminster I've been very ill before, both psychologically and physically. When I felt insecure about my ability to rise in the hierarchy I had a constant tendency to want to believe in Leftist tropes. As soon as I got healthy (both in mind and body) I wanted to be left alone. Nietzche talks about this.
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@Aryan_Racist It is possible to be a leftist and want to be left alone. I'm one of them. There is a strong individualist left-wing tradition. If you want to be left alone, don't you think others want that and deserve it too? Because your profile pic represents the opposite- fear, hate, and hostility. Empathy is achieved from an excess of energy. As that energy expands it extends beyond the individual, forming a perspective of our shared humanity. And what is good for you is good for me, because we are all interconnected.
"People need to start understanding that the system is systematically murdering them, and understanding that the situation is desperate, they need to see that solidarity with life, against capital, is their hope." RP
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@buckminster said in Why is the Ray Peat community so far right?:
The west is right wing. The crisis of the west is the crisis of capitalism. The overtone window has gone so far right that folks think someone is left wing if they drink Starbucks and don't hate gay people.
(The overtone window was not shifted by the right, but by the left (mostly around 2016) by calling everyone not drinking starbuck soy a nazi.)
@buckminster said in Why is the Ray Peat community so far right?:
Capitalism is the dictatorship of the rich and fascism is capitalism with the gloves off.
@buckminster said in Why is the Ray Peat community so far right?:
The right wing won in the west.
All those are wrong. Have you even read Evola? Trying to delineate right from left based on socialism or capitalism is a futile undertaking.
"Nothing is more evident than that modern capitalism is just as subverisve as Marxism. The materialistic view of life on which both systems are based is identical; both of their ideals are qualitatively identical, including the premises connected to a world the center of which is constituted of technology, science, production, 'productivity', and 'consumption'. And as long as we only talk about economics classes, profit, salaries, and production, and as long as we believe that real human progress is determined by a particular system of distribution of wealth and goods and that, generally speaking, human progress is measured by the degree of wealth or indigence - then we are not even close to what is essential..." - Evola
Socialistic ideas (though not limited to socialism) of charity and limited inclusivity (Catholicism) or social welfare and worker unions (Hitler) is not necessarily not right wing. Neither dictatorship (Franco) nor freedom from dictatorship (have you even read Junger?).
To be honest trying to objectively demarcate where leftism starts or ends is murky, so I tend to base it on intuition (everyone I don't like is a leftie). It usually comes down to objective moral standard (God/religion) and preference for ones own people - blood and soil, tradition. These are of course anti-capitalistic and not compatible with modern establishment so its silly IMO to say that the West is currently right wing.
Peatism, thought left leaning in principle, is founded on acknowledgement of natural order (not gay/trans-humanism compatible) and requires a degree of will to power, so with some modifications it is potent for right wing thought.
@buckminster said in Why is the Ray Peat community so far right?:
Speaking of health stereotypes it wasn't long ago when fash was associated with fat, ugly, dysgenic folks - and they still are to an extent, just watch videos of klan rallies.
Maybe it was the case in US, but not in Europe. You seem to have very US-centric view with historical perspective ending at 20th century.
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@buckminster Right-left dichotomy is used purely polemically. On its own the distinction is meaningless. It can only be understood by the group that is being excluded from the category "left" or "right" by the speaker.
I'm right wing so: I exclude sin and hideous; and embrace beauty, strength and war against all that is evil. I exclude absolute equality and tabula rasa; and embrace hierarchy, blood and soil. I exclude tolerance of weakness and sickness; and embrace charity, virtue and selfless sacrifice.
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@zawisza said in Why is the Ray Peat community so far right?:
I'm right wing so: I exclude sin and hideous; and embrace beauty, strength, and war against all that is evil. I exclude absolute equality and tabula rasa; and embrace hierarchy, blood and soil. I exclude tolerance of weakness and sickness; and embrace charity, virtue and selfless sacrifice.
We are living in a social ecosystem that needs checks and balances. Therefore, a whole (Gaussian) spectrum of political views is needed to keep the system healthy.
There is no (master) hierarchy, there are multiple hierarchies that intertwine with flat (or fractal) communal structures.
Rather than divide people into two classes, conquerors and victims, better to recognize that we all have two aspects, individually and collectively: exploitation and nurturing. ~normonics
“Selfishness beats altruism within groups. Altruistic groups beat selfish groups. Everything else is commentary.” ― David Sloan Wilson, Edward O. Wilson
In our history systems worked best where there was a proper balance between adventurous entrepreneurs and unions, men and women, conquerors and caregivers...
@zawisza do you assume that you have a monopoly to define what is sin, what is beautiful, and what is not?
What about Stephen Hawking who was mentally very strong but physically ill, how can you categorize that?
As you see - things are highly context-dependent. Left and right are both hands of our society. Right prevails when there is a danger/fear. Left prevails when there is a need for a change/relaxation of something. We need both, neither is better.
BTW Evola's views are outdated and also biased.
Adam Smith invented capitalism to serve communities better and it was strongly connected to Christian morality.
Exploitative neoliberalism introduced by Milton Friedman postponed some wars but exploited and corrupted the system from the inside...Panta rhei... | Liberté 🏴 | It depends... ;-)
A little Learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian Spring:
~Alexander Pope, An Essay on Criticism -
@Norwegian-Mugabe said in Why is the Ray Peat community so far right?:
- The politcal right is more focused on health and eugenics.
Some people on the right may talk about eugenics but they've done nothing to further it, only the left is actually doing it. They're transgendering/gaying/vaxxing lowly people out of the gene pool, encouraging abortion in low income communities, providing "assisted suicide" to degenerate drug addicts and mentally ill people, etc. And to top it off they've figured out how to make these people love their own extinction. It's genius.
