Glucose loading cures everything?
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One thing that gives me pause is that this all rides on the word of Dr. Stephens (and those participating). And Stephens doesn't strike me as a bad guy, but I do wonder if he is naive in some ways. I forget which video I saw of him where he essentially says "There is no possible way glucose can be harmful to you".
While I can appreciate that perhaps he has seen some incredibly positive results, that is a very bold claim. Especially considering some reports I've seen from the relatively small number of accounts I'm following in regards to this protocol. (The most pertinent example is someone on RPF who is experiencing intense dental pain basically immediately upon beginning this protocol.)
All of that is to say: if, in my limited purview, I am seeing that report (and others of less significant harm/setbacks), how can Stephens say there is no way it can be harmful?
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@jjk_learning said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
One thing that gives me pause is that this all rides on the word of Dr. Stephens (and those participating). And Stephens doesn't strike me as a bad guy, but I do wonder if he is naive in some ways. I forget which video I saw of him where he essentially says "There is no possible way glucose can be harmful to you".
While I can appreciate that perhaps he has seen some incredibly positive results, that is a very bold claim. Especially considering some reports I've seen from the relatively small number of accounts I'm following in regards to this protocol. (The most pertinent example is someone on RPF who is experiencing intense dental pain basically immediately upon beginning this protocol.)
All of that is to say: if, in my limited purview, I am seeing that report (and others of less significant harm/setbacks), how can Stephens say there is no way it can be harmful?
I just essentially said the same thing on RFP, but what if our intense symptoms are simply due to a transient retracing of old symptoms? I'm just asking out loud, as I cannot say one way or the other. It definitely helps look at it with a glass half full approach (which I struggle with), but it also can be naive, as you point out. I have a phone call with Dr. Stephens today, and I am going to get his take. I too agree that it sounds awfully bold to claim that it all rides on this one simple sugar.
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@GlucoseOrBust Good luck on your phone call. And yes, I can see Stephens thinking very highly of this one simple sugar. Maybe rightfully so! But to say it cannot do harm... especially considering what we've just seen DanDare go through... that's where it doesn't add up (to me).
Again, best of luck; let us know how it goes.
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@GlucoseOrBust How did you get an appointment with him? I've been trying for 2 weeks. We exchanged a couple of short emails and now it's crickets. Following his offer of a consultation, I've sent 3 messages requesting first available date and time and have received no response.
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@S-Holmes Sent you a DM just now.
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I just got off the phone with Dr. Stephens. I mentioned my difficulties with the program thus far (I am about a month in and currently taking 16 Tbsp 3-4 times per day). He mentioned that I am a more challenging case (I've had several major concussions and many many lower grade concussions from high school football, etc). In addition to psychological traumas and other "events". Anyway, he says that more than half of those that he would consider to have serious glucose limitations will experience this symptom retracing as the brain wakes up to what has been going on subconsciously for however long. At this point, it now has the resources to address these issues, so you should not spend too much time experiencing the various "bumps and bruises". It all sounded very reasonable.
I went on to tell him again how skeptical part of me is with all of this still. I recommended to him to start accepting and even asking for testimonials from the biggest turnaround patients along with setting up an online forum of sorts for his active patients to communicate with each other to share experiences along the way. He would have to moderate to make sure people are following his suggested guidelines, etc to avoid people doing their own thing and not getting results. Anyway, he reminded me that he was a huge skeptic for the first 500 or so patients that he saw healed. He couldn't believe that a simple sugar was the only piece needed for the physical healing. He does say that some psychological reframing and is required once the glucose limitation is healed to rewire the belief systems to match the health of the physical brain. The negative beliefs need to be dissolved to allow for more "personal growth" beyond just feeling better.
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@GlucoseOrBust Wow! Any weight gain with that amount?
I think I'm going to be a difficult case as well, so please post your continued progress and challenges if you're able to. It's very helpful.
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Happy if my report can me helpful!
@GlucoseOrBust Great you were able to connect with him. Does anyone know, or did you by any chance ask him why he recommends dosing 4 times a day? I've seen him mention 5-6 as well, but why not every hour?
If you are a month in and at 16 tbsp x 3/4 you must have added more at a very higher rate? I did the same, and had taken 27 tbsp the day before yesterday. But what if it's the higher doses are making the symptoms worse? What's the reasoning behind needing more glucose, instead of more often?
The reason I switched to every hour is because I think the higher doses were making my hypoglycemia worse. I wanted to explore if I got better results with less. Today my blood sugar has been much more stable, with 14 tbsp spread out, and I feel much better.
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@gentlepotato You should really get his book on Amazon. It's like five bucks. He also has three video lectures you can find on YouTube. I don't think I could stick with this protocol without buying into a good amount of the theory behind it.
He mentions that you need a sufficient dose each time alert the brain that there is now sufficient glucose available to it. The smaller, more frequent doses do not have this same impact. It seems like almost everybody has stable blood sugars on the large doses after just a couple of days.
I escalated my doses early on before working with him. He was good with it, as I have had a lot of concussions and other "glucose limiting events" in my past.
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@GlucoseOrBust I was thinking that could be the issue with taking smaller more frequent doses. I'm going to go back on the higher doses, 4 times (or more) a day.
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@jjk_learning said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
And Stephens doesn't strike me as a bad guy, but I do wonder if he is naive in some ways.
I think he is and it may be the "therapy" keeping him there. I consider what he's doing to be palliative of sensation and not physiology. Unless this kind of dextrose dosing is bridging a gap, and a person gradually returns to more natural compositions of sugar. Which those on it should try to do. In my opinion.
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@S-Holmes No weight gain thus far. I am taking a small dose of Tirzepatide (GLP-1), so I can't tell if I would have gain a bit otherwise. He does say that many gain a smallish amount of weight at the higher doses (10-15 pounds), but it typically comes off easily after treatment. Some lose weight or stay the same, so it just depends though.
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The treatment lasts on average 6 months, after which time no supplemental dextrose is needed unless limitations occur in the future due to head injury or trauma, etc. Also, some take "maintenance doses" or as needed during periods of high stress, etc.
I don't understand how anyone could not be skeptical about this. He says he himself didn't believe what he was seeing for the first 500 patients or so. After he saw how everyone got better though, he could no longer ignore it.
I am far from the testimonial giving stage at this point. I am still skeptical, but I am skeptical about everything, and I know this can be a hinderance to growth also. I'm hoping others on here and RFP are willing to do the treatment as he outlines (dosing, frequency, etc.). It's not complicated, but it does take a bit of time (for most) to see results and obviously requires a bit of faith to get beyond oddity of it all.
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@ThinPicking If I'm not mistaken, his protocol is to do this for approximately six months and then return to a regular diet. But I'm not completely confident on that. And even for himself (not on the protocol), he generally talks favorably about consuming dextrose/Smarties, so that brings that into question.
I'm with you that the dextrose thing feels like "bridging a gap" but shouldn't be where one stays permanently.
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@GlucoseOrBust Thanks for sharing your experiences so we can all learn together. It certainly takes faith to go through such a strange (unnatural) protocol.
That said, despite its oddity, some of the testimonials and simple reasoning does resonate positively. I guess that's why people like you and I are dabbling with it.
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@GlucoseOrBust said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
He mentions that you need a sufficient dose each time alert the brain that there is now sufficient glucose available to it. The smaller, more frequent doses do not have this same impact. It seems like almost everybody has stable blood sugars on the large doses after just a couple of days.
How does he know that? Has he tested smaller, more frequent doses and landed on the bigger ones because of testing? Could what type of "primary" glucose limiting events one has affect this? I'm not against protocols, but I want to understand the reasoning.
I've read his book and seen the three lectures. (I'd love to read the more detailed/scientific book he mentions is coming, but I haven't been able to find that.) I still don't understand the logic that large doses infrequently are the only or best way to go. Sufficient doesn't equate large. (I'm someone who has had an enormous amount of glucose limiting events, but_so far_ I seem to do better on smaller and frequent doses.)
I'm not very invested in what anyone specifically end up doing, we're all free to go about this as we please of course
But I think in a forum like this, these are questions we should be asking, so that people who read this (now or later) think of having markers themselves: Do you keep an eye on your blood glucose levels? If not, how do you know your BG levels are good and how can you know your symptoms are retracting, and that it's not an unnecessary healing crisis? And do you have any other markers you're paying attention to, if not BG levels, to help you navigate what works or not?All this said: I'm not sceptical of glucose. I think it can be extraordinarily helpful. I did some quick research on hyperinsulinemia (which is mentioned in the link I shared yesterday) and turns out hyperinsuliemia in newborns is treated with high doses of glucose, for a few days. I think it's a great intervention for many of us. I'm just not sure why a protocol would be better to follow, rather than my own markers. And to figure out what suits me best I need to explore a bit.
Anyone who's followed RP for a while will probably be more experienced with markers than most of Stephen's patients. We may have an easier time noticing what works for us, and ability to tweak it so it works better.
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@gentlepotato Your questions are valid. I may ask him for a better explanation of why it's high doses with lower frequency vs lower does with higher frequency. Honestly, I am in rough shape at this point in life. My ability to function is quite low in all aspects of my life. At this point, I am much more interest in how and what than in why. I understand that opens the door to naivety and desperate action, but I just don't have as much mental bandwidth available for the "why" piece at this point.
That being said, your questions and skepticism are valid. I'm not tracking BG, and don't plan to. Others he's treated have, and they all report BG levels normalizing within days of starting the treatment. Fluctuations become less and less.
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@GlucoseOrBust said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
Honestly, I am in rough shape at this point in life.
Mind if I ask where it began GorB? (A no, ignore or rough answer is fine.)
A particularly stressful event, or series of them...
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@GlucoseOrBust I totally get that, and I'm sorry to hear you're in rough shape. Not my intention to push you, on the contrary I hope we can support each other through this! I've been housebound for more than four years now after my ME got more severe, so I know how desperate one can become.
I've never been more consistently hopeful about a treatment, so I think he's onto something. The large picture thinking matches the biology and research about glucose limitations after viruses and TBI (big and small). My curiosity is primarily about how smooth we can make the experience.
Here's something I don't understand the logic of: He says to take more if your symptoms don't subside with the smaller doses, but if you still have symptoms at a higher dose it could just be retracting symptoms? So how do you know if it's a retracting symptom, or a sign to take a higher dose?
