Glucose loading cures everything?
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@GlucoseOrBust Thanks for sharing your experiences so we can all learn together. It certainly takes faith to go through such a strange (unnatural) protocol.
That said, despite its oddity, some of the testimonials and simple reasoning does resonate positively. I guess that's why people like you and I are dabbling with it.
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@GlucoseOrBust said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
He mentions that you need a sufficient dose each time alert the brain that there is now sufficient glucose available to it. The smaller, more frequent doses do not have this same impact. It seems like almost everybody has stable blood sugars on the large doses after just a couple of days.
How does he know that? Has he tested smaller, more frequent doses and landed on the bigger ones because of testing? Could what type of "primary" glucose limiting events one has affect this? I'm not against protocols, but I want to understand the reasoning.
I've read his book and seen the three lectures. (I'd love to read the more detailed/scientific book he mentions is coming, but I haven't been able to find that.) I still don't understand the logic that large doses infrequently are the only or best way to go. Sufficient doesn't equate large. (I'm someone who has had an enormous amount of glucose limiting events, but_so far_ I seem to do better on smaller and frequent doses.)
I'm not very invested in what anyone specifically end up doing, we're all free to go about this as we please of course
But I think in a forum like this, these are questions we should be asking, so that people who read this (now or later) think of having markers themselves: Do you keep an eye on your blood glucose levels? If not, how do you know your BG levels are good and how can you know your symptoms are retracting, and that it's not an unnecessary healing crisis? And do you have any other markers you're paying attention to, if not BG levels, to help you navigate what works or not?All this said: I'm not sceptical of glucose. I think it can be extraordinarily helpful. I did some quick research on hyperinsulinemia (which is mentioned in the link I shared yesterday) and turns out hyperinsuliemia in newborns is treated with high doses of glucose, for a few days. I think it's a great intervention for many of us. I'm just not sure why a protocol would be better to follow, rather than my own markers. And to figure out what suits me best I need to explore a bit.
Anyone who's followed RP for a while will probably be more experienced with markers than most of Stephen's patients. We may have an easier time noticing what works for us, and ability to tweak it so it works better.
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@gentlepotato Your questions are valid. I may ask him for a better explanation of why it's high doses with lower frequency vs lower does with higher frequency. Honestly, I am in rough shape at this point in life. My ability to function is quite low in all aspects of my life. At this point, I am much more interest in how and what than in why. I understand that opens the door to naivety and desperate action, but I just don't have as much mental bandwidth available for the "why" piece at this point.
That being said, your questions and skepticism are valid. I'm not tracking BG, and don't plan to. Others he's treated have, and they all report BG levels normalizing within days of starting the treatment. Fluctuations become less and less.
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@GlucoseOrBust said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
Honestly, I am in rough shape at this point in life.
Mind if I ask where it began GorB? (A no, ignore or rough answer is fine.)
A particularly stressful event, or series of them...
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@GlucoseOrBust I totally get that, and I'm sorry to hear you're in rough shape. Not my intention to push you, on the contrary I hope we can support each other through this! I've been housebound for more than four years now after my ME got more severe, so I know how desperate one can become.
I've never been more consistently hopeful about a treatment, so I think he's onto something. The large picture thinking matches the biology and research about glucose limitations after viruses and TBI (big and small). My curiosity is primarily about how smooth we can make the experience.
Here's something I don't understand the logic of: He says to take more if your symptoms don't subside with the smaller doses, but if you still have symptoms at a higher dose it could just be retracting symptoms? So how do you know if it's a retracting symptom, or a sign to take a higher dose?
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@gentlepotato said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
Anyone who's followed RP for a while will probably be more experienced with markers than most of Stephen's patients. We may have an easier time noticing what works for us, and ability to tweak it so it works better.
The levels of adrenergic hormones or also especially PRL over the medium term will be of particular interest to me. My BG 2 hours after 50gr of dextrose comes in at 85 mg/dL. Rather than BG I may be more interested in whether there are (slight) measurable increases in urine glucose as a hint for the ideal serving size at any point in time. I will look for (semi)quantitative test-stripes for that.
Concerning followers of RP I see also the downside potential for much more irregular and messed-up results among such groups of people because of the maybe many peculiar drugs they can be using. As a prominent example of this there's certainly their utter misunderstanding of nonvitamin D3 and widely wrecked innate immunity through that alone. Perhaps there's even been aggravation of glucose-limiting events due to prior "unfueled" B-vitamin gorging.
On the other hand, various things like avoidance of PUFAs should likely play into reaping more benefits of OXPHOS glucose burning.I'm over three weeks into dextrose now and upping my servings to 100gr (5x a day).
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@gentlepotato said in [Glucose loading
Here's something I don't understand the logic of: He says to take more if your symptoms don't subside with the smaller doses, but if you still have symptoms at a higher dose it could just be retracting symptoms? So how do you know if it's a retracting symptom, or a sign to take a higher dose?
In my case, retracing is revisiting old symptoms that haven't flared up in years. So experiencing those along with my current pathologies hasn't been a picnic. I'm sure I need to increase my dose. I'm buying dextrose in 50 lb bags now.
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CC with some respect and humour.
@CrumblingCookie said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
followers of RP
because of the maybe many peculiar drugs they can be using
RP didn't have "followers" on "social" media. He had readers and listeners. The Faustian chemist types are doing their own thing.
@CrumblingCookie said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
their utter misunderstanding of nonvitamin D3 and widely wrecked innate immunity through that alone
Applying a 'poison A' mentality to a naturally produced intermediary that you were only 'advised' to use topically, where it's made, is probably a mistake. If you want to debate it, make a thread on that specifically.
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@ThinPicking I have had a lot of pretty serious concussions. I played high school football at a pretty high level. Offensive lineman, so my job was head to head contact on each play. I saw stars on a regular basis. I also was knocked unconscious while very drunk when I was 17. I had a rough middle school experience like many do. I took it really bad, and had a couple of specific instances that I have had a hard time working through even decades later. I don't know how much of this is actual "trauma" (physical or emotional) and how much is genetic/epigenitic ability to withstand it. My experiences may or may not have caused "glucose limitations" for another, but I think that is another factor at play.
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@CrumblingCookie said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
The levels of adrenergic hormones or also especially PRL over the medium term will be of particular interest to me. My BG 2 hours after 50gr of dextrose comes in at 85 mg/dL. Rather than BG I may be more interested in whether there are (slight) measurable increases in urine glucose as a hint for the ideal serving size at any point in time. I will look for (semi)quantitative test-stripes for that. >
Great idea!
Totally agree that there could be a downside too. Can you elaborate on this? Not sure I understand.
Perhaps there's even been aggravation of glucose-limiting events due to prior "unfueled" B-vitamin gorging.
I'm over three weeks into dextrose now and upping my servings to 100gr (5x a day).
100 x 5, or 20 x 5?
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@gentlepotato I think it's a great question. I think he would answer that it's possible two things:
- Your brain is not yet allowing all of the glucose in yet. This is what he said to me yesterday. It isn't yet convinced that there is enough coming after the current dose, so it doesn't utilize it all. I am paraphrasing what he said and it could be a little off, but I think that's the premise. Again, I am trying to get off of the why aspect, but this is a really good question.
- Your stomach tolerance will limit the amount of glucose you can take until it adjusts. Theoretically, you could keep taking glucose until symptoms disappeared, and this would partially alleviate the first issue above. However, you would likely get nauseas and vomit, so that is why he recommends the more gentle acclimation period for most.
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@S-Holmes said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
In my case, retracing is revisiting old symptoms that haven't flared up in years. So experiencing those along with my current pathologies hasn't been a picnic. I'm sure I need to increase my dose. I'm buying dextrose in 50 lb bags now.
Thanks for sharing, that's helpful.
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@ThinPicking said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
The Faustian chemist types are doing their own thing.
I can agree with this statement. After all, every single individual does and is ought to do her own thing.
I feel no need to debate that. "Faustian chemist types" made me chuckle a little. It seems you generally understood the groups I described as distinct subsets of a general population who never dabbled in self-experimentations of all sorts and who may thus have varying baselines to both the better and the worse.@gentlepotato said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
100 x 5, or 20 x 5?
100gr x5. I.e. 500gr per day.
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@gentlepotato said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
@S-Holmes said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
In my case, retracing is revisiting old symptoms that haven't flared up in years. So experiencing those along with my current pathologies hasn't been a picnic. I'm sure I need to increase my dose. I'm buying dextrose in 50 lb bags now.
Thanks for sharing, that's helpful.
Another indication that healing is being supported is itchy skin and rashes. Both my husband and I have had those since starting glucose. Thankfully they don't last long.
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He mentions that you need a sufficient dose each time alert the brain that there is now sufficient glucose available to it.
I'm sorry but what does this even mean?
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@happyhanneke I've pondered that a few times myself. What has helped me understand it a little better is remembering that the body downregulates thyroid in times of starvation (a survival mechanism). It takes a while and perhaps some overfeeding to reset our metabolism when we haven't had adequate nutrients/calories. Could something similar be happening in the brain and we need to overfeed pure fuel to reset it? It's just a comparative analogy ...the pathways and mechanisms are certainly going to be different.
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@S-Holmes
Maybe. It sounds hocus pocus. I never like doctors or professionals that talk like that or tell you to talk to your body.
But then again I have to remember that he is in behavioral health. I work with behavioral health providers all the time and this is how they talk. So maybe it's as simple as that. -
On his website, he links an article on
"Brain capillary pericytes are metabolic sentinels that control blood flow through a KATP channel-dependent energy switch"
(energy-dependent and K+ influx activation).
https://www.cell.com/cell-reports/fulltext/S2211-1247(22)01768-5Maybe someone would like to dig into this and report. There could be much more at play than an oversimplified assumption of glucose-sensing. Perhaps (re)stimulation of cell differentiation of those pericytes. Or (re)stimulation of their KATP expression. And perhaps CNS revascularization overall.
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Interesting. There's inevitably focus on the circulatory in this. Which may relate to previously mentioned osmotic/fluid dynamic and therefore structural properties of glucose. Which will depend on availability of other structural components while/until the renal system 'normalises' composition.
"In vivo, these arteries constrict in response to intravascular pressure, establishing a baseline of myogenic tone from which diameter can be modulated to adjust blood flow."
Maybe his dosing strategy is feeding something else (in him), before his brain lights up.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3078804/
"However, improvement in the oxidative capacity and efficiency rather than the selection of the substrate is likely the ultimate goal for metabolic therapies."
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@Jaffe said in Glucose loading cures everything?:
For bloat. Try minimizing the amount of water you mix it with as low as possible. I found 70-80ml enough to fully dissolve but low enough to minimize the bloat I used to get with a whole glass of water. Dr. Stephens says his patients that use glucose tablets don’t experience the bloating issue that dextrose powder users do.
I'm a normie sugar guy but this sounds reasonable to me. I'd be interested to know what David is doing concentration wise. And what else he eats. And what else he drinks. I almost want to talk to him.
