What defines the 'bile dump' the Charlie forum always talks about?
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I'm not sure precisely what a bile dub is, but I do remember people have told me in the past about a treatment with olive oil and lemon juice .
And basically it results in the peeing out of lots of little tiny stones, which allegedly is supposed to help gallstones or something like that. I'm not really sure. It sounds kind of dreadful, but I've read about it and I've talked to people who have done it. I'm not sure if that's what he's talking about.
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@GreekDemiGod said in What defines the 'bile dump' the Charlie forum always talks about?:
@yerrag Explain why it takes years of VA restriction to even come close to depleting blood levels of VA.
We know for a fact that VA does accumulate easily. In this case, I don’t see how a high retinol diet is needed for VA to have beneficial effects, since we are benefitting from the stored retinol years after restricting VA?
How does eating beef liver once a week amount to a high retinol diet? If that is what you consider a high retinol diet, I stand corrected as I don't believe that is so.
In the first place, how are you able to store a lot of retinol? Were you supplementing retinol? Most of the time, people don't take retinol but instead take beta-carotene as that is what most supplement makers use.
Or have you been taking a lot of retinol from daily intakes of food other than liver and oysters? Which food are these?
If anything, unless these are fortified with retinol, the foods I take that you may call high in retinol such as eggs and milk and what not, which I do take, are not even enough to make me improve my eyesight.
Aren't you from Romania? I am under the impression that Vitamin A toxicity is a Made in USA thing. Just as peanut allergy is. Are you really harmed by Vitamin A toxicity, or are you just a vitamin A toxic hypochondriac?
Temporal thinking is the faculty that’s
engaged by an enriched environment, but it’s
wrong to call it “thinking,” because it’s simply
the way organisms exist... - Ray Peat Nov 2017 Newsletter -
bile dump = gallbladder squirting out the bile it collected from the liver into the small intestine
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@yerrag I’m not talking about me. I am talking in general about people who can’t handle high amounts of VA, that were on the old forum.
And you avoided my main question by focusing on “if it’s coming from food sources, it’s not a problem.” That may well be the case.
It seems like very little amounts of VA are needed to maintain a sufficient level on a blood tests. Certainly not the amount provided by regular dairy, eggs, carrots consumption. I just wonder why is that?
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@GreekDemiGod Then my answer applies to them. I think they are a human subspecies that the US Talmudist medical system has over a century of making a legitimate marketplace of competitive medical approaches and systems into a toxic unified racketeering system of medical quackery, managed to make sickly that they are at the worst made unable to use a beneficial vitamin correctly to bring about health and instead made toxic to them. But at its best they are merely blinded by a medical ideology in the hands of a group of seemingly rational people building on a preconceived bias of one or two rabble rouser s pretending to displace or equal Ray Peat.
A certain kind of manifest destiny is subconsciously ingrained in them that makes them think their particular artificial condition, contrived by Talmudist medical quackery, applies to the entire human race, and that their experience defines humanity as udefiled by rhe Talmudist penchant to deceive.
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I have had problems with liver, which is basically a retinol supplement. I’ve read that retinol itself can have actually a negative correlation with RBP if the dose is exceeded by a certain capacity. VA overload or toxicity is more aptly identified by increased retinol esters in the blood as opposed to increased RBP and infact an increased RBP is associated with better thyroid function.
There are studies showing VA supplementation and zinc supplementation increase the circulating RBP but I believe this is only acute when looking at the vitamin A as we also have studies showing an increase in Retinol esters and decrease in RBP. So I suspect that bigger doses should only be taken occasionally or never at all.
You want your RBP to be steady. I don’t believe big doses of liver should be consumed, smaller doses close to that upper limit where your body isn’t overloaded are probably best for increasing RBP and not getting those negative effects of increased retinol esters.
Carotenoids are also a highly regulated form of VA which the late travis felt strongly about compared to retinol. One might prefer them because of they are much more regulated.
I think it’s usually best to opt for the most regulated. I can find these studies Im speaking of if anyone is interested
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@Jakeandpace said in What defines the 'bile dump' the Charlie forum always talks about?:
I have had problems with liver, which is basically a retinol supplement.
A whole food is never to be equated with a supplement. You probably are aware of that, right?
RBP?
Beta-carotene better? Maybe, if you think everyone can convert beta-carotene to retinol easily.
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The way i'm familiar with bile is the standard push out the old and encourage new formation. Old recycled bile is old news in bioenergetics, even Peat has written and talked about it. There's no new epiphanies here imo, new pushers may simply be riding other's coattails, tweaking it for better or for worse, and perhaps not giving credit where it's due.
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(RBP) Retinol binding protein.
And when liver is magnitudes higher than any other food in vitamin A I would say it is akin to taking a vitamin A supplement. Most foods are usually high in one specific vitamin making them unique, eggs (choline), oranges (vitamin C). Just because something is a whole food doesn’t mean it can’t cause problems due to one factor of it. Take oxalates, take PUFA’s from nuts, take iron from red meat.
*edit
I should say I’m not saying beta-carotene is better and one should eat primarily beta-carotene. I am saying that it is more regulated and that a mixture of adequate retinol from say eggs or milk (or even small amounts of liver but even then it’s risky) combined with adequate carotene from plant sources should provide enough VA in a more controlled and safer way than eating 4 oz of liver weekly which will cause an increase in retinol esters and dis regulation of normal functioning of RBP.
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@Jakeandpace said in What defines the 'bile dump' the Charlie forum always talks about?:
Just because something is a whole food doesn’t mean it can’t cause problems due to one factor of it. Take oxalates, take PUFA’s from nuts, take iron from red meat.
Whole food do come with co-factors that make whole foods generally better than taking supplements with extracted nutrients that often come with contaminants and excipients.
I don't believe we buy oxalate supplements at all. But they just come with the foods we eat and are a necessary evil when the body has problems with them, something which not everybody is affected by. I even believe problems with oxalates are iatrogenic, and afflict mostly people being cares for their whole lifetime by the western medical complex. In less industrialized countries unvictimized by "world class" healthcare, problems with oxalates are a rare anomaly.
It is preferable to take nuts in whole food form than to take isolated PUFAs, as in whole food form vitamin E comes with the PUFAs to somewhat neutralize their ill effects.
And iron in red meat is not to be seen as a negative when iron is needed as a nutrient. It's needed to make blood. Iron is bad when it is free iron circulating in the body, but the body in a healthy state handles it well by keeping it stored in proteins that keep it from interacting negatively with microbes and ROS in lipids.
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@Jakeandpace said in What defines the 'bile dump' the Charlie forum always talks about?:
I should say I’m not saying beta-carotene is better and one should eat primarily beta-carotene. I am saying that it is more regulated and that a mixture of adequate retinol from say eggs or milk (or even small amounts of liver but even then it’s risky) combined with adequate carotene from plant sources should provide enough VA in a more controlled and safer way than eating 4 oz of liver weekly which will cause an increase in retinol esters and dis regulation of normal functioning of RBP.
Your logic should also dictate that we all graze like cows instead of eat 3 full meals a day only because there are some people who need to graze because their blood sugar regulation ability is compromised.
Or that we should all avoid eating peanuts because some of us can die from reacting to them poorly.
Eating liver once a week works well for more people than it doesn't. The tiger or lion doesn't get to catch a prey daily so it has the luxury of eating just a small sliver of liver each day. Their body is designed to assimilate the retinol in liver and store them for future use and this is is why vitamin A is oil soluble and not water soluble. Same applies to humans. The norm as we are designed to be dictates there is nothing wrong at all eating liver and getting the benefits of retinol this way. It is more convenient for me to take in retinol this way than to add another daily routine of taking a small amount of retinol supplement everyday.
I'm not even sure taking beta-carotene is better. As beta-carotene needs to be converted by the body to retinol and B12 is needed for that, and maybe some people can't even convert carotene to retinol. Taking retinol directly would be a sure-fire way to get retinol, and I could argue this point.
I have been eating liver once a week for 8 years, and I no longer need to wear glasses to drive, and can still read small type. I'm sixty, and my eyesight is much better than when I was in high school. Otoh, my younger sister, who swears by an expensive supplement maker named Shaklee, sells and uses their supplements religiously. She takes regularly their vitamin A supplement, available only as beta-carotene. Her eyesight is just like the average American. Her ophthalmologist tells her she is due for cataract surgery in a few years. Go figure.
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My eyesight had also improved eating liver but also oysters as well. It also improved my maxilla growth. Liver unfortunately made my hair thin at an accelerated rate and caused a pretty bad mental state that felt like losing memory and processing power. I’ve been severely depressed before and this felt somehow worse, like I wasn’t even present most of the time. This kind of led me to where I am. I noticed changes in a family member as well which seemed similar to mine.
I’m glad you have such great reactions to liver but I think it’s dangerous when people homogenise a diet or a food to say it’s good for everyone in any circumstance without discussing possible downsides which are present with foods like liver. I agree in a lot of cases it can be great but as evidence of this whole movement of Low A people it clearly isn’t all great all the time.
Here is a good paper on retinol toxicity that informed a lot of what I’ve been saying. I’ve also been influenced by Travis if you couldn’t tell.
https://ajcn.nutrition.org/article/S0002-9165(23)29271-0/fulltext
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@Jakeandpace said in What defines the 'bile dump' the Charlie forum always talks about?:
m glad you have such great reactions to liver but I think it’s dangerous when people homogenise a diet or a food to say it’s good for everyone in any circumstance without discussing possible downsides which are present with foods like liver. I agree in a lot of cases it can be great but as evidence of this whole movement of Low A people it clearly isn’t all great all the time.
Nothing is ever clear cut and I don't have to give you fair warning that what applies to me does not necessarily apply to you. I would call it common sense even. As what happens differs between people in reacting to any substance is very much a matter of context.
In like manner, you need not tell me that what is your experience should be mine either.
I can speculate, and you can speculate as well, and we can each give compelling arguments to buttress each of our case. For my experience and your experience do not line up with each other.
But I'll speculate. What if the people who cannot metabolize vitamin A well are really hypothyroid, in various degrees, without knowing they are, and the vitamin A they have accumulated is having a toxic effect on them because they are hypothyroid?
Consider that the US medical system uses a system of evaluating hypothyroidism that unduly makes far too many false negatives on hypothyroidism based on a thyroid panel. On top of that, an overwhelming majority of Peaters don't even know how to use alternate methods of testing for hypothyroidism because they are just too lackadaisical about using the QTc value in an ECG or an Achilles tendon reflex test to verify the diagnosis of doctors using the thyroid panel of TSH, T3, and T4. Are you yourself among these people?
I know for a fact that most people would rather just cross their fingers and get tested for hypothyroidism and hope they don't get a false negative. They could buy a personal ECG and test their ECG but they will not, or they can go out of their way to get a free Achilles tendon reflex done, but no, they would not do that either.They are just very passive about getting the right diagnosis on the state of their thyroid.
And most actually don't even get their thyroid tested because it costs a lot, and when their primary care physician does not approve a test, they cross their fingers and hope they aren't hypothyroid. Not that it helps when the thyroid panel usually gives a false positive on hypothyroid.
Until they do get a good thyroid test, they have no business blaming vitamin A for this putative toxic state when all along they leave the door open to be hypothyroid enough to make themselves unable to properly and normally metabolize vitamin A.
If you think it to be inconceivable that a lot of people can exhibit such deficiency in clear thinking, it does happen and is far too common. Too many fables in kindergarten occur in the real world. From the emperor with no clothes to the pied piper of Hamlin. You don't have to be a lemming to act like one.
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Yea I'd agree with most of what you said. Ray wrote in an early article of his as a rebuttal to someone speaking of VA toxicity that cultures that tend to eat the liver also tend to eat the thyroid.
I know Danny Roddy still takes thyroid despite years of Peating and I'd say that the two work best together, that being liver and thyroid. And you can chuck the oysters in there as well (in fact you probably should).
@yerrag said in What defines the 'bile dump' the Charlie forum always talks about?:
Until they do, they have no business blaming vitamin A for this putative toxic state when all along they leave the door open to be hypothyroid enough to make themselves unable to properly and normally metabolize vitamin A.
This is why I think this prescription that people hand out that "everyone must eat liver to be healthy" is dangerous. I don't think you do this, in fact I've got no idea but it's an ever increasing trend that leaves those in a compromised health state to become even more compromised. I think generalising that liver is good for someone can be dangerous because the person will often times only look surface level and start eating liver without considering other factors that if they are lacking in could cause the extra vitamin A to do damage. Most people don't have the money, time, and mental bandwidth to make these kind of inclusions into their life and will end up doing more harm than good. Like for myself I simply don't know how to use thyroid properly and would need to do a lot of reading to learn. In the meantime I won't be eating liver until I learn and I wouldn't suggest anyone else to.
In an ideal society we shouldn't even have to think about diet too much and having to balance this with that and micromanage everything. It is nice to know but these concepts should all be baked into the cuisine, culture and science. If only it were congruent and not so disjointed. This is going off topic but I wrote a post in my own thread about how religion and traditions maintain a good diet, like how catholics eat certain foods on certain days and I believe the jewish have a liver dish. Ideally diet should be in the background and not the foreground and doctors would be well versed on how to properly diagnose hypothyroidism if it even came to that.
https://www.jlr.org/article/S0022-2275(20)36724-9/pdf
Back on topic though I find it interesting that at higher doses Retinol actually suppresses the release of RBP and at a more therapeutic dose increase it. But then again if you constantly increasing your RBP and not getting enough zinc you will run into problems, thus start the vicious cycle. This is probably why Ray recommends the oysters.
And if you don't get enough vitamin A then your liver will not release all that pent up RBP, so it really is a balancing act.
