High-fat, low-carb diet may cause obesity, anxiety (by raising serotonin), even suicide
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@Butter-Girl
Due to the title of the post: "High-fat, low-carb diet may cause..."
And, the study itself delineates a high fat diet, vs a not high fat diet.Georgi is doin some heckin classic reasoning. Apparently, pufa making a high percentile of the fat in a balanced diet doesn't cause the same deleterious effects as the same diet, minus the carbs. This does not indicate pufa is safe on a higher carb diet, nor does it indicate pufa is the controlling factor for raising serotonin in the high fat / low carb diet - of course we know that it no doubt exacerbates it (as does Georgi.
I know I made sure to incorporate lots of low carb dairy fat and protein in my keto carnivore days, and I experienced all the things the study results show before I added carbs.
Georgi is a fan of dairy fat for weight management, immune function, metabolism, etc. He's posted studies extolling it in rpf.
I don't remember for sure if it was Ray or Danny Roddy, but I'm positive I heard him say that if you're going to cause the stress of a low carb diet like carnivore, low fat is safest (even if it's saturated), to keep the FFA levels low in the blood.
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/free-fatty-acids-ffa-as-the-cause-of-insulin-resistance.7824/ -
@LetTheRedeemed said in High-fat, low-carb diet may cause obesity, anxiety (by raising serotonin), even suicide:
@Butter-Girl
Due to the title of the post: "High-fat, low-carb diet may cause..."
And, the study itself delineates a high fat diet, vs a not high fat diet.Georgi is doin some heckin classic reasoning. Apparently, pufa making a high percentile of the fat in a balanced diet doesn't cause the same deleterious effects as the same diet, minus the carbs. This does not indicate pufa is safe on a higher carb diet, nor does it indicate pufa is the controlling factor for raising serotonin in the high fat / low carb diet - of course we know that it no doubt exacerbates it (as does Georgi.
I know I made sure to incorporate lots of low carb dairy fat and protein in my keto carnivore days, and I experienced all the things the study results show before I added carbs.
Georgi is a fan of dairy fat for weight management, immune function, metabolism, etc. He's posted studies extolling it in rpf.
I don't remember for sure if it was Ray or Danny Roddy, but I'm positive I heard him say that if you're going to cause the stress of a low carb diet like carnivore, low fat is safest (even if it's saturated), to keep the FFA levels low in the blood.
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/free-fatty-acids-ffa-as-the-cause-of-insulin-resistance.7824/You wrote:
“ Apparently, pufa making a high percentile of the fat in a balanced diet doesn't cause the same deleterious effects as the same diet, minus the carbs”
Are you stating it is the carbs and not the fat that “cause the deleterious effects” then?As far as Georgi “being a fan of dairy fat for weight management, immune function, metabolism, etc. “
that’s what I thought he promoted as well.
So that is why I made the comments I did and questioning why it seemed like he was supporting the posted articles assertions that high fat was what was the “deleterious factor”.If he happens to see the responses, perhaps he can clear up the confusion a bit.
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@OliverCloasov said in High-fat, low-carb diet may cause obesity, anxiety (by raising serotonin), even suicide:
I noticed that the fats used in the diet were soy oil and lard (pig fat), the latter of which is typically high PUFA, especially if sourced from CAFO pigs.
Something to keep in mind when assessing their results.So you are saying they used soy oil and lard? I didn’t happen to see what type of fat they used. But if that is the case, then that corroberates what I am suggesting that it is the type of fat that caused the anxiety.
If they had used saturated fat as opposed to the Pufa fat, the results might have been different. Perhaps very different.
Or, from another vantage point, the data is suggesting (and perhaps this is Georgi’s point in posting the study) that it is the AMOUNT of fat used that was the cause of the anxiety, and not necessarily the TYPE of fat that was used.But, given that Peat has written extensively on the anti inflammatory effects of saturated fats, I would tend to conclude that it was the fact that Pufa fat was used, and not the amount of it that caused the anxiety.
However, I can see that an inordinate amount of even the saturated anti inflammatory fat can lead to obesity.
But higher intake of saturated fat has a satiating effect, so you tend to eat less of it. -
You wrote:
“ Apparently, pufa making a high percentile of the fat in a balanced diet doesn't cause the same deleterious effects as the same diet, minus the carbs”
Are you stating it is the carbs and not the fat that “cause the deleterious effects” then?The opposite. Sorry I guess that wasn’t clear. Aka, I believe they used the same type of fat ratio for the dietary interventions, but one dietary intervention had more carbs, and one had less carbs.
The one with less carbs fared worse.As far as Georgi “being a fan of dairy fat for weight management, immune function, metabolism, etc. “
that’s what I thought he promoted as well.
So that is why I made the comments I did and questioning why it seemed like he was supporting the posted articles assertions that high fat was what was the “deleterious factor”.I think the study enforces an important point: free fatty acids in the blood is toxic — even saturated free fatty acids in the blood will be toxic, tho they didn’t address that alone. So if you really want to disagree with it you could just say “the study can’t determine that,” it can determine that pufa is apparently fine when combined with carbs — but we know they to be false cumulatively.
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@Butter-Girl
"Just about everything that goes wrong involves FFA increase. If they are totally saturated fatty acids, such as from coconut oil and butter, those are less harmful, but they still tend to shift the mitochondrial cellular metabolism away from using glucose and fructose and turning on various stress related things; By lowering the carbon dioxide production I think is the main mechanism." - Ray PeatAnd this reply from Georgi:
“This is true, but palmitic acid specifically activates the pyruvate dehydrogenase enzyme unlike any other fat. Stearic acid can do the same but it much less potent than palmitic. Peat said it several times and I posted studies on that too. Low pyruvate dehydrogenase activity is found in virtually all disease, especially diabetes and cancer, and aging in general. Thiamine (B1), thyroid, and palmitic acid restore its function.
Also, palmitic acid is crucial for keep the mitochondrial limid cardiolipin saturated. Aging and diseases are all characterized by both decrease in cardiolipin levels and increase in the unsaturation of the composition. Babies have almost fully saturated cardiolipin and very old people have cardiolipin composed almost entirely of omega-6. Cardiolipin is one of the main controllers of cytochrome C oxidase function and the activities of electron transport chains III and IV. Animal studies with phosphatidylcholine showed that it can restore cardiolipin levels back to youthful levels, and eating saturated fat restores its saturated composition.
When you eat sugar in excess you synthesize primarily palmitic acid. Yes, eating tons of fat is not wise but is someone has been ingesting PUFA poison for years, it's better for them to gorge on saturated fat for a while to change the body composition of fats. Otherwise, if they try to lose weight all that PUFA will flood the bloodstream and wreak havoc from which very few people will be able to come out fine.”https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/saturated-fats-and-mitochondrias.9177/
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@LetTheRedeemed said in High-fat, low-carb diet may cause obesity, anxiety (by raising serotonin), even suicide:
You wrote:
“ Apparently, pufa making a high percentile of the fat in a balanced diet doesn't cause the same deleterious effects as the same diet, minus the carbs”
Are you stating it is the carbs and not the fat that “cause the deleterious effects” then?The opposite. Sorry I guess that wasn’t clear. Aka, I believe they used the same type of fat ratio for the dietary interventions, but one dietary intervention had more carbs, and one had less carbs.
The one with less carbs fared worse.As far as Georgi “being a fan of dairy fat for weight management, immune function, metabolism, etc. “
that’s what I thought he promoted as well.
So that is why I made the comments I did and questioning why it seemed like he was supporting the posted articles assertions that high fat was what was the “deleterious factor”.I think the study enforces an important point: free fatty acids in the blood is toxic — even saturated free fatty acids in the blood will be toxic, tho they didn’t address that alone. So if you really want to disagree with it you could just say “the study can’t determine that,” it can determine that pufa is apparently fine when combined with carbs — but we know they to be false cumulatively.
Ok thanks for the clarification.
Well, I’m of the belief that we need some fat (saturated of course) and some carohydrates in one’s diet….and some protein. I believe Peat even elaborated on this, saying that our microbiata needed the balance of all three in order to function properly.
Ray Peat said this:
“ One thing is that makes the food a lot pleasanter to eat. It makes it digest more efficiently and steadily. Experiments with a loop of intestine…they would put just proteins, or just carbohydrates, or just fats in at a time; they found that the digestion was very poor until you had all three types of food present at the same time. It was as if the intestine needed a complex stimulus before it would really effectively start absorbing and digesting the food. So it's partly a stimulus to your intestines to handle the protein and the carbohydrate effectively. It’s a signal of satisfaction, that helps to lower stress, to have fat and sugar in your food.”The necessity of having, fat, carbs and protein is good for digestion as well as keeping inflamation down. Mono eatings to me, seems to be an unbalanced way of eating.
But I get your point about the the free fatty acids in the blood leading towards toxicity, particularly if it is too much.
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@Butter-Girl totally agreed. Whenever I try low fat for weight loss I don’t feel good.
I remind extremist peatarian gate keepers that he said in an ideal healthy state one could eat 50% of calories from fat; but on the other hand that, pufa even from animal sources like dairy, is relevant enough that it’s worth supplementing fat intake with fructose intake (moderately lowering fat intake).
I of course follow how I feel, and so drink several glasses of raw milk in the morning and with each meal and eat a pint of icecream a day.
Dairy really is the super food — especially for caucasians — due to them missing the genes to more efficiently convert fructose to lipids (fat), and the low melanin skin doesn’t retain calcium. This is why I supplement a few teaspoons of calcium carbonate (pasteurization converts the calcium into a colloidal calcium — indigestible).
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@LetTheRedeemed said in High-fat, low-carb diet may cause obesity, anxiety (by raising serotonin), even suicide:
@Butter-Girl totally agreed. Whenever I try low fat for weight loss I don’t feel good.
I remind extremist peatarian gate keepers that he said in an ideal healthy state one could eat 50% of calories from fat; but on the other hand that, pufa even from animal sources like dairy, is relevant enough that it’s worth supplementing fat intake with fructose intake (moderately lowering fat intake).
I of course follow how I feel, and so drink several glasses of raw milk in the morning and with each meal and eat a pint of icecream a day.
Dairy really is the super food — especially for caucasians — due to them missing the genes to more efficiently convert fructose to lipids (fat), and the low melanin skin doesn’t retain calcium. This is why I supplement a few teaspoons of calcium carbonate (pasteurization converts the calcium into a colloidal calcium — indigestible).
And I agree with you.
That’s an interesting point about dairy being important for caucasians. I didn’t know that.
Well, good thing I love dairy! And ice cream
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@LetTheRedeemed said in High-fat, low-carb diet may cause obesity, anxiety (by raising serotonin), even suicide:
@Butter-Girl
"Just about everything that goes wrong involves FFA increase. If they are totally saturated fatty acids, such as from coconut oil and butter, those are less harmful, but they still tend to shift the mitochondrial cellular metabolism away from using glucose and fructose and turning on various stress related things; By lowering the carbon dioxide production I think is the main mechanism." - Ray PeatAnd this reply from Georgi:
“This is true, but palmitic acid specifically activates the pyruvate dehydrogenase enzyme unlike any other fat. Stearic acid can do the same but it much less potent than palmitic. Peat said it several times and I posted studies on that too. Low pyruvate dehydrogenase activity is found in virtually all disease, especially diabetes and cancer, and aging in general. Thiamine (B1), thyroid, and palmitic acid restore its function.
Also, palmitic acid is crucial for keep the mitochondrial limid cardiolipin saturated. Aging and diseases are all characterized by both decrease in cardiolipin levels and increase in the unsaturation of the composition. Babies have almost fully saturated cardiolipin and very old people have cardiolipin composed almost entirely of omega-6. Cardiolipin is one of the main controllers of cytochrome C oxidase function and the activities of electron transport chains III and IV. Animal studies with phosphatidylcholine showed that it can restore cardiolipin levels back to youthful levels, and eating saturated fat restores its saturated composition.
When you eat sugar in excess you synthesize primarily palmitic acid. Yes, eating tons of fat is not wise but is someone has been ingesting PUFA poison for years, it's better for them to gorge on saturated fat for a while to change the body composition of fats. Otherwise, if they try to lose weight all that PUFA will flood the bloodstream and wreak havoc from which very few people will be able to come out fine.”https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/saturated-fats-and-mitochondrias.9177/
Based on the quote you posted by Georgi, would it then be advantageous to supplement with Pyruvate, or just use the thiamine?
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@Butter-Girl good question, and outside my pay grade, lol.
I'm generally a fan of the building block nutrients that restores a pathway or metabolism, rather than bypass it supplementing the end-product -- idk about the consequences of that. Let me know what you find if you try research it -- if there is knowledge that it won't retard the pathway in anyway, I'd like to try it, too.
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@LetTheRedeemed said in High-fat, low-carb diet may cause obesity, anxiety (by raising serotonin), even suicide:
@Butter-Girl good question, and outside my pay grade, lol.
I'm generally a fan of the building block nutrients that restores a pathway or metabolism, rather than bypass it supplementing the end-product -- idk about the consequences of that. Let me know what you find if you try research it -- if there is knowledge that it won't retard the pathway in anyway, I'd like to try it, too.
Found this on Hans website: https://testonation.com/2020/06/05/how-to-improve-insulin-sensitivity-the-right-way/
“ Glucose oxidation promoters
Gluconeogenesis uses lactate as a precursor, so lowering lactate can help to reduce the activity of gluconeogenesis. Pyruvate dehydrogenase (PDH) is the rate limited enzyme in glucose oxidation and it’s inhibited by pyruvate dehydrogenase kinase (PDHK).
PDHK inhibitors or PDH promoters increases pyruvate oxidation and decreases the level of compounds (e.g. lactate) for gluconeogenesis in the liver. Several PDHK inhibitors are in a clinical trial including, JTT-251, AZD 2545, and leelamine which have proven effective in lowering blood glucose levels in diabetic rodent models.
Natural promoters of PDH include vitamin B1 and Pyrucet (combination of ethyl acetoacetate and ethyl pyruvate). Substances that inhibit lipolysis such as niacin and aspirin are also able to increase PDH, as fatty acids activate PDHK and inhibit PDH.”
Haidut’s article on it: https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/pyrucet-liquid-ethyl-pyruvate-aceatoacetate-mix.27487/
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@Butter-Girl very interesting. Thank you.
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