Methionine/Cysteine restriction increases longetivity AND energy expenditure

[LucH]

@Mauritio said in Methionine/Cysteine restriction increases longetivity AND energy expenditure:

once people reach adulthood they likely consume too much protein.

Saying that or nothing is the same. Too much of a good thing is is always bad.
I'm not saying we could / should eat more protein.
First, RP wanted to put in excerpt that in adulthood, we need less excitative amino-acid like methionine or leucine.
By the way the link for the "interview" is poor. No explanation.
We could change / replace 50 % of catabolism proteins by collagène (glycine).
But mind this problem if you are a big fan of supplement:
Too much glycine?
What happens if you use too much glycine (supplement)?
=> You need more B9 as 5-MTHF.
First there is no danger of over-consumption except mild action on energy (GABA pathway, slow-down signal to the brain, aka depression by some users) but we burden the methyl pathway by over-using folate.

So you need co-enzyme B9 as 5-MTHF (not simply folic acid).

The breakdown of glycine by the glycine cleavage system produces a molecule called a methyl group. This molecule is added to and used by a vitamin called folate. Folate is required for many functions in the cell and is important for brain development.

[LucH]

@Mauritio
Sorry for the way I began the last post. I didn't want to be agressive towards you. I often appreciate much of your interventions
More seriously:
How much glycine – By Chris Masterjohn
An article from Chris Masterjohn on balancing methionine and glycine with a “Glycine-to-Methionine Ratio” searchable food database.
https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/balancing-methionine-and-glycine-in-foods-the-database/
“......Methionine helps prevent fatty liver disease, which affects an estimated 70 million Americans. It makes us mentally more flexible, and can help cool our anxiety or lift us from depression when our minds are rigidly ruminating on negative thoughts. Glycine helps stabilize our blood sugar. It helps stabilize our mind, to prevent us from drifting into endless distractions. It promotes healthy sleep, and it revitalizes our skin and bones.”
How Much Glycine Do We Need?
“Estimates of how much dietary glycine we need range from 10 grams per day to 60 grams per day. Our needs are probably closer to 10 when we are in good health and closer to 60 when we are in poor health. In terms of what has been studied in humans, we can say the following:
• 3-5 grams of glycine before a meal helps stabilize blood sugar.
• 3 grams of glycine before bed helps improve sleep.
• 15 grams of gelatin before a workout helps improve collagen synthesis in our joints.
• 20 grams of glycine per day is used to treat some rare metabolic disorders.
• 60 grams of glycine per day has been used to treat schizophrenia.
If you were to add up the glycine from all of the specific uses you might use it for, it would all fall into the estimated 10-60 grams per day we need.”
How Much Glycine Do We Need to Balance Methionine?
“We do not have any rigorous human studies showing how much glycine we need to eat to make up for a given amount of methionine. We know, however, from biochemistry that methionine depletes glycine, and we know that our ancestors consumed much more glycine than we do.

The biochemistry predicts that every gram of methionine would increase our needs for glycine by 0.5-1 gram.”

• this excerpt I collected from old RPF where I no longer go. Too much retinol must have reached the brain of The-Person-Whose-Name-Shouldn’t-Be-Mentioned.
  Article from RP Forum – By Mito, Jun 29, 2018.
  https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/balancing-methionine-and-glycine.24580/

Therma adds:
Keep in mind mitochondria contain a glycine cleavage enzyme that wastes excess glycine to ammonia (well, it refurbs folate in process, but you won't care). And most likely in some disease states it goes straight to that. At 60g you might as well chug some bathroom cleaner.

ExCarniv says:
After searching on Chronometer different cuts of muscle meat, even Oxtail or Shank, most have a ratio of 1:2 of Methionine:Glycine
So, seems like just a bit of gelatin per day (like 5-6 grams) will gives you a total ratio of 1:3 and that should be enough right?

Amazoniax cites a study, the conclusion of which is: "In conclusion, it is suggested that the hepatic Gly level is the primary factor in determining the rate of Met metabolism in rats fed a high Met diet and that the effect of Gly added to a high Met diet is elicited through the restoration of the decreased Gly level."

[Butter Girl]

@Mauritio

Increase Glycine, increase Taurine and you might try Tudca too. That might help.

[Butter Girl]

@LucH
I take 20 gms of glycine a day, maybe even more because I supplement gelatin as well. It has made a world of improvement.

[Ecstatic_Hamster]

@Amethyst what improvements have you realized? Thanks

[cs3000]

interesting stuff ,
looks like part of the effect is from that increase of thyroid hormone / signalling

Thyroid hormone increases the FGF21 (but high dose , though does improve with more time, is tissue dependant) https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20236931/

& Thyroid hormone also increases the PEPck seen in cysteine restriction
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1135718/

and thyroid hormone & receptor expression is increased by methionine restriction
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1756464620300062

main roles Phosphoenolpyruvate Carboxykinase plays https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2785631/

[Butter Girl]

@Ecstatic_Hamster

My goal has been to have the glycine dominate the other aminos, if that makes sense. So I’m taking more of it. I’m trying to minimize the other ones to some degree.

The glycine has tremendously helped me in a number of areas: improved sleep, improved mood, muscles, skin. It makes you kinda chill…at least it does for me.

I have the MTHFR mutation and Chris Masterjohn says it helps with methylation. That’s another reason I take it.

• An interesting side note: I don’t lift weights, but occasionally I will jump on my Total Gym and do a workout. As a result of taking the increased glycine, It appears that my muscles are more toned and firmer. Without much exercize.
  Fyi, I don’t always take straight glycine- I use gelatin and collagen as well. I also don’t always get 20 gms. But I do aim for higher amounts. I mix it in my milk.

[Butter Girl]

@DavidPS

I’ve read that thru modern farming practices, our soils are depleted of selenium, so supplementation of it is advantageous.

I take 200 mg. of selenium every few days or so. Then I’ll stop for a week or two so as not to overload my system.

[Mauritio]

@cs3000
T3's FGF21 increase depends on PPARa, so we got another player in the game.

This is what Travis wrote on the PPARs:

"The activation of the PPAR receptors can be considered a good thing, and their first described function was to upregulate peroxisomes—small subcellular organelles which metabolize excessive prostaglandins and fats. I get the impression that the activation of these could represent the 'resolution stage' of inflammation—an idea which may depend on exactly which subtype of PPAR is activated. I am aware of four types: PPARα, PPARβ, PPARγ, and PPARδ. Of these four, PPARγ get the most attention . . . by far."

[Butter Girl]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag6lNs9KHcQ

How GLYCINE Benefits Your Body (Detoxing Methionine!)

(Not sure how to embed the video)

[Butter Girl]

@Mauritio
What’s interesting to me is the foods high in cysteine are high Pufa foods:

https://veganalyze.com/foods_high_in_cystine_sources_list.html

So another win for avoiding the Pufas.

[Ecstatic_Hamster]

@Amethyst said in Methionine/Cysteine restriction increases longetivity AND energy expenditure:

@Ecstatic_Hamster

My goal has been to have the glycine dominate the other aminos, if that makes sense. So I’m taking more of it. I’m trying to minimize the other ones to some degree.

The glycine has tremendously helped me in a number of areas: improved sleep, improved mood, muscles, skin. It makes you kinda chill…at least it does for me.

I have the MTHFR mutation and Chris Masterjohn says it helps with methylation. That’s another reason I take it.

• An interesting side note: I don’t lift weights, but occasionally I will jump on my Total Gym and do a workout. As a result of taking the increased glycine, It appears that my muscles are more toned and firmer. Without much exercize.
  Fyi, I don’t always take straight glycine- I use gelatin and collagen as well. I also don’t always get 20 gms. But I do aim for higher amounts. I mix it in my milk.

Thank you!!

[Mauritio]

Haa anybody tried sodium selenite and selenomethionine and can compare them ?

According to the study I posted sodium selenite should be quite a bit more effective than selenomethionine.

[Butter Girl]

@Ecstatic_Hamster said in Methionine/Cysteine restriction increases longetivity AND energy expenditure:

@Amethyst said in Methionine/Cysteine restriction increases longetivity AND energy expenditure:

@Ecstatic_Hamster

My goal has been to have the glycine dominate the other aminos, if that makes sense. So I’m taking more of it. I’m trying to minimize the other ones to some degree.

The glycine has tremendously helped me in a number of areas: improved sleep, improved mood, muscles, skin. It makes you kinda chill…at least it does for me.

I have the MTHFR mutation and Chris Masterjohn says it helps with methylation. That’s another reason I take it.

• An interesting side note: I don’t lift weights, but occasionally I will jump on my Total Gym and do a workout. As a result of taking the increased glycine, It appears that my muscles are more toned and firmer. Without much exercize.
  Fyi, I don’t always take straight glycine- I use gelatin and collagen as well. I also don’t always get 20 gms. But I do aim for higher amounts. I mix it in my milk.

Thank you!!

My pleasure!

[Ecstatic_Hamster]

@Mauritio said in Methionine/Cysteine restriction increases longetivity AND energy expenditure:

Haa anybody tried sodium selenite and selenomethionine and can compare them ?

According to the study I posted sodium selenite should be quite a bit more effective than selenomethionine.

How about a Brazil nut. 1.2g PUFA but 90mcg of selenium elemental.

[Mauritio]

@Ecstatic_Hamster I think it's mostly selenomethionine.

[LucH]

@Mauritio said in Methionine/Cysteine restriction increases longetivity AND energy expenditure:

anybody tried sodium selenite and selenomethionine and can compare them ?

*) Forms of sélénium
The forms of selenium exist in 3 major forms:

• Yeast
• Sodium (selenite or selenate)
• Amine acid (Selenio-Methionine or Cysteine).
  Selenate or seleno-methionine (SM) are generally found on the market. Specialists classify the Se in two main categories: organic and inorganic. The inorganic salts would be supposed to be less well absorbed by the tissues. If we only refer to SM and Selenate, this is not really true, as several studies have shown it. (4)
  *) Biodisponibility
  The degree of absorption of selenite is less, but sufficient, of the order of +/ 50 to 60 % against 75 % for selenomethionine. (2)
  What form is the best?
  Selenium in any form whatsoever, that it comes from food or supplements, organic or inorganic, is used by the body for the synthesis of selenoproteins after being first metabolized in hydrogen selene, selenium cellular storage. The surplus of selenium is converted into methylated metabolites and excreted by urine and breath. Excessive accumulation of hydrogen selenial can cause its oxidation, resulting in the production of reactive oxygen species (ROS) resulting in oxidative toxic effects in the body. (o)
  All forms of selenium are well absorbed, but the absorption of selenomethionine is the best. They use the same active transport mechanism as for methionine, one of the 9 essential amino acids which can only be obtained by food, which increases the effectiveness of absorption of selenomethionine compared to the inorganic forms of the selenium.
  *) Recommended Daily Supply
  Currently recommended nutritional supply (RDA) in adults is 55 micrograms/day.
• Daily needs are 55 mcg (AJR). 1 mcg /kg of weight is optimal.
• Diet (1) provides around 50 % of needs if you eat meat or legumes. A single nut from Brazil / Amazon covers needs (…).
• In the event of pathology / detox, 200 - 300 mcg can be prescribed punctually.
• “Too Much of A Good Thing is Bad!”
  => Selenium supplementation should not be taken every day (half-life). Except in particular cases, in the event of a detox for example, therefore punctually (2 to 300 mcg per day, in detox cure). But in this case, a contribution of curcumin would be desirable to reduce hepatic toxicity due to the impact on dehydrogenase enzymes.
• Taking different forms of selenium is interesting, especially in the event of cancer prevention (recurrence).
• If you exceed +/ 100 mcg/ L in the blood serum, you impact the operation of certain dehydrogenase enzymes, especially required in the Krebs cycle.
  *) More details on this post, with sources and references.
  Selenium: Too much of a good thing is bad. Forms and enzymes
  https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t1953-selenium-too-much-of-a-good-thing-is-bad#27971 (in French ) translator needed but with references from studies in English)

Sources et Références
0) Toxicité hépatique due à l’impact sur les enzymes déshydrogénases
Rôle protecteur de la curcumine
Protective effect of curcumin during selenium induced toxicity on dehydrogenases in hepatic tissue. 2005
PMID: 15881869
Selenium administration resulted in a marked decrease in the activity levels of the liver succinate dehydrogenase, malate dehydrogenase, and lactate dehydrogenase while pyruvate dehydrogenase increased significantly.
2) http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ewh-semt/pubs/water-eau/selenium/index-fra.php
Avec références d'études.