Just like SSRI “antidepressants”, talk therapy likely no better than placebo
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@Corngold said in Just like SSRI “antidepressants”, talk therapy likely no better than placebo:
@Hando-Jin said in Just like SSRI “antidepressants”, talk therapy likely no better than placebo:
It's just a sick joke that wastes people's time, distracts them from finding real solutions and most importantly distracts from the material needs of desperate people: convince people all they need to get better is 'psychotherapy sessions' and all of a sudden their housing, food and clothing needs don't need to be considered. Perfect for nations controlled by a miserly, parasitic elite that want to take everything for themselves while they watch the vulnerable rot in the gutter.
Haven't read this Epstein fellow but I'll agree environment is very important.
Let's pretend for a second that insurance covered the majority of psychotherapy. I.e., imagine that prescriptions were $100-$500 and in-person visits were $10-20, the exact opposite of reality. If people weren't worried about the money they have to spend to "help themselves," they might actually start feeling better. They might see the burden of the "talk therapy" as a low cost option instead of a dire, catastrophic necessity. Let's say the upper bounds is out of pocket $400 per session. There goes at least 2 or 3 bills and/or gas and food. Absurd, the power of the evil schmucks and shysters who control all medical associations, insurance companies, pharmaceutical industry, and academic research.
Indeed. Being a 'psychologist' can be very lucrative, at the very least a comfortable upper middle class lifestyle. In my country they've been subsidized to the hilt by governments.
I'm also reminded of Ray's mention of Martin Seligman, a psychologist who helped devise the U.S governments 'enhanced interrogation' program aka torture by using his knowledge of learned helplessness. How was that asshole not struck off?
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As a first step I agree @Hando-Jin. But raising the rate of a traumatised and incoherent person. And leaving them with their own ideation is probably a very bad idea.
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No doubt empathetic listening has it's benefits but that's where it begins and ends in regards to psychologists. They don't even tell you that when they sign up. In fact, they don't tell you much of anything in regards to what the cause of your misery is, it's all very vague. Probably for reasons of avoiding legal liability. You just sit there and they hum and haw and write something down. Who knows what they are writing when they are the only ones allowed to see it.
Once I had a girlfriend who was seeing a therapist who had an impressive education with multiple degrees, one of them for integral psychology which at the time I knew a little about and thought may have been more impressive that the other bizarre ideas that dominate psychology. When the therapist printed out a bunch of inspirational quotes from the Oprah Winfrey Show to give to my then-girlfriend, the jig was up.
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Haidut's quote
The study below demonstrates that another pillar of mental disease treatment – talk therapy – likely works in more than 20% of the cases, and even then the magnitude of effects of probably small.
Haidut's post
“…Around 20 per cent of ESTs performed well across a majority of our metrics
20% of 70 ESTs (types of therapy) tested effective. That's doesn't mean that therapy only works in 20% of cases.
Off the mark
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@herenow PLS pls look for psycho somatologist, they are big chances to heal. Look for Peter A. Levine work. Also most of the therapists I like say that talking besides is not working also you retraumatize yourself.
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@Vasi1311 said in Just like SSRI “antidepressants”, talk therapy likely no better than placebo:
talking besides is not working also you retraumatize yourself
What do you mean by besides vasi?
It absolutely has the potential to make things worse. Just like raising the metabolic rate does. Along with better perception in the now as described by Georgi on a podcast with Nate. This may be the very reason many people have an aversion to "peating".
I'm tempted to go back to sleep again in all honesty. "Normie" mode. It's a lot easier.
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@ThinPicking good point but it's similar to fat vs carb fueling, and why people might jack themselves eating high carb rapidly. Gradual approach.
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@Vasi1311 said in Just like SSRI “antidepressants”, talk therapy likely no better than placebo:
@herenow PLS pls look for psycho somatologist, they are big chances to heal. Look for Peter A. Levine work. Also most of the therapists I like say that talking besides is not working also you retraumatize yourself.
I will but I just got interested in Dr. Albert Ellis. There's never enough time
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@Hando-Jin said in Just like SSRI “antidepressants”, talk therapy likely no better than placebo:
You just sit there and they hum and haw and write something down. Who knows what they are writing when they are the only ones allowed to see it.
R.D. Laing supposedly used and promoted lsd to help de-stress patients. I think it's proven LSD helps people socialize and feel social unity (it does). He also went on walks with them or had casual conversations. His books are worth taking a look at. He was I think as much against the new pharmaceutical approach as he was against mainstream psychotherapy. "Sane person in an insane world," I think was one of his lines about "mental illness." Because environment is a huge factor; every mind is within a body, every body within a community or space, so those connective areas need to be healed. (not sure if Peat mentioned Laing but I feel like he might have, it was pretty revolutionary stuff in the 60s-80s apparently).
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@herenow if you have read as much as I will know that not finding a time is also a choice ... I hope you will find time and good specialist
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How do you feel about retinol now vasi? Not a trick question. Wondering how your... liver's doing.
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@Vasi1311 said in Just like SSRI “antidepressants”, talk therapy likely no better than placebo:
I hope you will find time and good specialist
A good therapy to you too Vasi. I watched one of Levin's interviews. It was worth the time. It's amazing how much overlap there is for these different approaches.
It's now the biotherapeutic.forum in all but name where we join hands and talk about our mothers
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@herenow said in Just like SSRI “antidepressants”, talk therapy likely no better than placebo:
biotherapeutic
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it would probably be more fun to be waterboarded
Over the last decade, Sweden, like most Western countries, embraced the call for “evidence-based practice.” Socialstyrelsen, the country’s National Board of Health and Welfare, developed and disseminated a set of guidelines (“riktlinger”) for mental health practice. Topping the list of methods was, not surprisingly, cognitive-behavioral therapy.
The Swedish State took the list seriously, restricting payment for training of clinicians and treatment of clients to cognitive behavioral methods. In the last three years, a billion Swedish crowns were spent on training clinicians in CBT. Another billion was spent on providing CBT to people with diagnoses of depression and anxiety. No funding was provided for training or treatment in other methods...
Back in May 2012, I wrote about Sweden’s massive investment in cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT). The idea was simple: address rising rates of disability due to mental illness by training clinicians in CBT. At the time, a mere two billion Swedish crowns had been spent.
Now, several years and nearly 7 billion Crowns later, the NAO audited the program. Briefly, it found:
The widespread adoption of the method had no effect whatsoever on the outcome of people disabled by depression and anxiety;
A significant number of people who were not disabled at the time they were treated with CBT became disabled thereby increasing the amount of time they spent on disability; and
Nearly a quarter of people treated with CBT dropped out.
https://www.scottdmiller.com/swedish-national-audit-office-concludes-when-all-you-have-is-cbt-mental-health-suffers/ -
@Hando-Jin said in Just like SSRI “antidepressants”, talk therapy likely no better than placebo:
it would probably be more fun to be waterboarded
There's a subtext in here as much as a point and a joke.
Some people seem to think retraumatising a person or a population can also work. While I can see that's possible for doing it to myself and living through certain large questionable events, it seems a bit archaic at this point.
Danny Rod'ster said somewhere that we should all stop pretending. And I knew what he meant. And I agreed. But what then. A horrid revolution is still as much if you call it a "movement". No thank you. I like science.
Obviously you're a shaolin ninja master hando jin. So you've got to look around and empathise to see this.
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@Corngold said in Just like SSRI “antidepressants”, talk therapy likely no better than placebo:
good point but it's similar to fat vs carb fueling, and why people might jack themselves eating high carb rapidly. Gradual approach.
Also yes you're right corngold. But what's gradual.
No lying, no sitting, no running, no limping. Brisk!
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@ThinPicking said in Just like SSRI “antidepressants”, talk therapy likely no better than placebo:
@Hando-Jin said in Just like SSRI “antidepressants”, talk therapy likely no better than placebo:
it would probably be more fun to be waterboarded
Some people seem to think retraumatising a person or a population can also work.
Yes, many therapists believe this- 'exposure therapy'.
Not my cup of tea.
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@herenow aaah our mothers ... Well I try to lok more in to what a healthy mother looks like and feels like because I think with our past thats what is worth healthy examples, but thats hard to find.
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@ThinPicking why you ask about my feelings about retinol? I never used it.
