DHT + Derivatives doesnt actually shut you down

hwisdom

I'm just tired w arguing with this science worshipper he doesnt believe shit abt AT1 + PTH increasing prolactin causing shutdown nor estrogen nor through anything
"I know like 5 niggas who take DHT and their balls literally are fine" -"noo you need another man to tell you if you're alowed to use ur eyes" this mf keeps talking abt Le excessive AR agonism and HPT axis like bruuvvvvvvvvvvv im not even brittish this nigga got me saying bruv like bruvv so yea does anyone here have like some actual hard evidence that convinces the biggest low 5AR niggas to believe that without estrogen or excessive nutrient deficiency you cant get shut down ray peat quotes aint enough for this typa shit

ethan

@hwisdom what did i just read

engineer

@ethan said in DHT + Derivatives doesnt actually shut you down:

@hwisdom what did i just read

does exogenous DHT shut down endogenous production or not

alfredoolivas

@engineer Yes lol. If you want androgen receptor agonism you are gonna have to pay the piper, and agonise the androgen receptors on your pituarity and gonads - shutting you down.

According to my extensive research over the years, only DHEA and Proviron are the only steroids that aren't supressive in normal to low doses. But I suspect that is probably because they aren't androgenic, and turn into other androgens that act as neurosteroids. I believe they aren't androgenic because both fail to build muscle or supress LH.

But is shutdown something to worry about, when taking therapeutic doses of androgens? I don't think so, production comes back to normal once there is less androgens agonising the pituarity and testicles.

ethan

@alfredoolivas @hwisdom shutdown from testosterone esters always gave me a low neurosteroid feeling and closed my testes. while tren & or DHT esters on their own, never affected the size of my testes or gave me the low neurosteroid feeling that testosterone esters did.

I feel almost nothing from exogenous dht/tren anymore, If you want more endogenous steroids just induce hyperthyroidism, take thiamine and 100,000 units of vitamin A

jamezb46

I have also been interested in this question and I'd like to suggest an alternative mechanism by which even DHT may be suppressive.

Haidut mentioned this on a GE livestream (can't remember which one), and I have subsequently confirmed it myself, but DHT does convert into an estrogenic metabolite, namely 3 beta-androstanediol. 3bAd has high affinity for estrogen receptor beta. It is hypothesized as being one of the pathways by which androgens lead to HPTA shutdown.

So, there are 2 canonical pathways to shutdown if that is correct:

Testosterone => Estradiol
Androstenedione => Estrone => Estradiol
DHT => 3bAd

Both are estrogen-mediated.

Has anyone actually tried the 500 mg or so dose of pregnenalone that was said on the old forum to protect against AAS-induced testicular atrophy? Would be nice to see if anyone has put that into practice.

jamezb46

@alfredoolivas Nothing that you said is illogical or even implausible, especially what you said about the intrinsic AR-mediated feedback on the testes themselves.

However, I think estrogen does the majority of the work here. There is a reason why all, not most, but all of the PCT drugs are estrogen receptor blockers or AIs. None of them are anti-androgens nor do they act like anti-androgens in the brain as far as I am aware.

Surely that fact needs to be part of the explanation as to what accounts for the lion's share of shutdown.

hwisdom

@engineer Ion rlly under reasonable doses it shouldnt

hwisdom

@ethan not feeling anything from tren is wild how much were u taking?

also thank u for ur vit A suggestion I shall look into it more

hwisdom

@jamezb46 this could be a viable explaination as to why lower doses of DHT doesnt cause shut down since at lower doses, dht is anti estrogenic, but at higher doses, it turns estrogenic

engineer

@hwisdom I take this stuff for A https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004R63IAW

hwisdom

@engineer wouldnt this induce carotenoid poisoning and u turn into donald trump

engineer

@hwisdom said in DHT + Derivatives doesnt actually shut you down:

@engineer wouldnt this induce carotenoid poisoning and u turn into donald trump

I don't know

I've been taking it for a long time now and a whole lot of nothing has happened in the vit A toxicity department

hwisdom

@engineer hahahahaha yea lwk vit A never was real it was lwk just hypothyroidsm all along

sunsunsun

@hwisdom you used the word doesn't but your plural word 'doses' necessitates the word 'don't' in this sentence

ethan

60mg tren E makes me feel hungry and nothing else

hwisdom

@sunsunsun oh ok thank u but dang r u this bothered by it

hwisdom

@ethan intressting but anyhow what if the tren would make you grow by making u eat more the same way that the genetic code of a newborn trex nigga the size of a chicken would be driven to have a larger appetite so that it can eventually grow into a t rex think abt it fr

alfredoolivas

@jamezb46 You are right. I was able to get natural production back after abusing grams of test for 1 year and 1 month, and I happened to be using high dose exemestane & thyroid. Also I always maintained my semen volume from ejaculation and the size of my balls.

jamezb46

@alfredoolivas

Wow. So just to be clear you are saying that for about 13 months, your natural production was suppressed from AAS, BUT your ejaculate volume and testicle size were more or less normal during those same 13 months when you were abusing grams of test

THEN there came a time about 13 months after you began your cycle when you discontinued the AAS, used high dose Asin and thyroid and then subsequently recovered natural production? Is that right?