I have trouble sleeping
-
@alfredoolivas i take 150mg a day if i take 1g will give me histamine issues, peat talked about this.
-
@LucH ive used gelatin for the glycine before used to take 20g a day i think it worsen my methylation, i am udner the impression that in the case of undermethylation glycine could make things worse, i use the methylated b basic by thorne once a day its has p50 10mg niacinamide that helps mthfr 150mg, methylfolate 600mcg, r5p 10mg which is very important for mthfr, right now i use magnesium glycinate for a small source of glycine, i am not sure if i am undermethylated or overmethylated but i had histamine issues all my life therefore i am most likely undermethylated which causes histamine intolerance and thats the main cause of my mast cells, to make things worse inb4 the last 3 months my folate intake was minuscule and i didnt supplement any b vitamins except riboflavin for my mthfr which caused my system to collapse. What is your opinion about my next steps? I know you have as a user experience with histamine issues.Thanks for your response. I had to cut smoking and coffee maxxing which i love it increases homocysteine and makes detoxification harder for the body, cursed existence. I avoid meat which is the only food i like it makes methylation worse because of methionine , increased eggs for the choline 4 a day and eat more greens for the folate which i never ate.
-
@lykos
when using 20 g collagen or 10 g glycine powder, you need pure TMG 500 mg. In moderation TMG (tri-methyl-glycine)
You've got to know and memorize H3 & L3 food to know how to manage.
H3 high level of histamine brought by food.
L3 high level liberated (set free) when ingesting some food. I doesn't bring histamine like in smoked salmon but it induces a liberation.
When you take methyl B9 and B12, it only means you have a functional vitamin. You don't then use up the capacity / availability of the metabolism. But you don't bring methyl for the metabolic functions.
mind excess oxalates too.In short: Excess oxalates burn sulfur. Methyl is used to compensate, when overdriven.
Sulfur Depletion: The theory suggests oxalates use up sulfur-containing amino acids (like cysteine, methionine) and glutathione (the body's master antioxidant) during detoxification, creating a sulfur deficiency.
Methylation's Role: Methylation is crucial for detoxification, neurotransmitter production, and DNA function. When sulfur is depleted by oxalates, methylation pathways can become strained, leading to symptoms.Useful info
Impact négatif de l’oxalate sur le métabolisme : Chaos biochimique ! (in French, translator needed).
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t1959-impact-negatif-de-loxalate-sur-le-metabolisme-chaos-biochimique#28275
Excerpt:
Oxalates interfere with sulfate transport (via Sat1 transporter). The main reason why oxalates are so toxic is that each molecule of oxalate that enters our body will induce a loss of a molecule of sulfate. Sulfate uses the same transporter to enter and leave the body. (…)
The main idea with oxalate toxicity is that it causes problems in the liver and kidneys – our two most important detoxification organs. While high oxalate levels cause liver problems and loss of vitamin B6, it is in the kidneys that oxalate causes us to lose much of our precious sulfate. The kidney is a key player in sulfate-related issues because it is the organ responsible for keeping our sulfate levels in balance. As already stated, the kidney must exchange an oxalate molecule for a sulfate molecule via the Sat1 transporter, and when oxalates are high, this causes a loss of sulfate in the urine.
Note: Sulfate is required for SOD enzyme.
The function of superoxide dismutase (SOD) is to scavenge free radicals to combat cellular aging and associated health disorders. -
@lykos
You probably need copper. An extra 4-6mg pd long-term. For the histamine stuff and for the melatonin, too. -
@CrumblingCookie i used to supplement for 7 months 4mg a day until it lower my iron a lot and zinc
-
@lykos Which iron marker did it lower? If ferritin that would be good and only indicates less cell death. Proper iron availability markers are % of total iron binding capacity (calculated by serum iron and transferrin) and soluble transferrin receptor. As for zinc maybe you are one who needs an extra of that as well, because copper may moderately use up Zn and vice versa for e.g SOD.
7 months of 4mg is a solid duration. What else did it do? -
@CrumblingCookie ny ferittin was 20 which is supposed to be good, but i felt weak and lost most of my hair which it was either because of low zinc or iron after eating 500g of beef for 1 half month my hair regrew back and i could breath better.
-
@CrumblingCookie i eat lentils for copper and folate now and some potatoes, cacao, dates.
-
@LucH should i eat more onions to incease sulfur?, will give trimethylglycine a try i know chris masterjohn talked about it being beneficial , i need to decrease oxalates, i tried eating vegetables for folate but it made me worse, i only use legumes for folate as they are high in copper and low in oxalates. What do you think about the methylated b complex should i keep using it? Or supply in isolation r5p p5p and maybe b12 and could diet alone suffice for someone with mthfr or are you supossed to take all these supplements to compensate for your genetic mutation?
-
@lykos
First, you aren’t going to solve the problem with an anti-histamine. Not the right time and the right molecule. I’ll make a comparison: If you suffer from IBS and have a thin mucin (linen) in stomach, you won’t tolerate curcumin nor aloe vera, though they are well-known to calm down and appropriate against inflammation.
You have to coordinate an approach:- Bowel transit and MMC OK.
- Choose food you can tolerate (for a limit-time). For instance soup.
- Calm down overreaction. How is another problem.
- Get inform on food with contain oxalates / phytates and histamine.
- Get inform on how to manage to get rid of excess
a) Oxalates with calcium / citrates (Mg or K citrates).
b) Excess histamine with Cu (0.5 mg), DAO enzymes (1 000 000 Unit).
NB: If you take a high level of Zn (<15 mg), you aren’t going to assimilate Cu on an efficient way. 30 mg Zn is acceptable when in cure. We can double the posology when suffering from a leaky gut, if you can tolerate them. So, OK for 30 mg Zn and 1 mg Cu. The ratio between Cu and Zn must remain at the level 1/10. One exception: in case of a bacterial attack, or a couple of days.
Problem of assimilation when there is Ca at the menu (carrier).
c) Drink green tea (EGCG) instead of coffee if you need a boost effect. 2-3 cups 150 ml/d, every 4-5 hours. If you drink it more often, you accustom the serotonin receptors. Lose of effects. It's a drug.
*) I won’t take a B50 (with cofactors) every day (cell growth). I take mine 2x/wk., with one caps choline & inositol, 250 mg each. They function similarly in metabolic pathways, especially fat metabolism and nerve health. They are key for brain function, cell signaling, liver support, and hormonal balance. It could be 3x/wk for the first 2 weeks.
*) I you often suffer from stress or low grade-inflammation, you’ll need more B6. 20-25 mg/a day (half-life 20 Hours). B6 PLP but in cure (3 weeks). Afterwards, you need to make abstinence staples to avoid a shutdown of the brain. Too much of a good thing is bad.
*) I you eat carbs 3x/d + a snack you’ll need more B1. I take the cheapest one, B1 HCl 100 mg. But we need more B2 when taking a HD B1.
1.2 mg (+ 500 mg B1 per 1000 K/cal) is required as a minimum. Most people lack B1.
I take B1 B2 B3 B6 100 mg each, and TMG 500 mg. 2 or 3X/wk.
See Overtone for B1 (brain). B1-2-3 + biotin is required for energy.
I get my B9 and B12 (methylated forms) from my B50 complex.
*) So, you won’t have problems with a gene defect (methylation).
-
@LucH is 3x week enough for TMG, i might reduce the b complex to 4x a week, i understand the issue with oxalates but whats wrong with phytates? Would lentils be an issue long term?
-
@lykos asked:
- is 3x week enough for TMGl
- i might reduce the b complex to 4x a week,
- i understand the issue with oxalates but whats wrong with phytates?
- Would lentils be an issue long term?
1)Probably yes. Except if you lack B3, sulfur and become very deficient in methyl group. Not the case.
2) Ok for 4x/wk. Every other day.
B1 should be taken as a RDA (1.2 mg) or above 92 mg. So, 100 mg B1 HCl is fine every day. Not a B50. Otherwise it stimulate cell growth (cancer).
NB: RDA + 0.5 mg per 1000 K/cal.
3) See beneath.
4) soaked lentils are acceptable but not too often. lentils and snow pea (mangetout) contains less anti-protease than other legumes.Useful info on phytates
"Anti-nutrient" aspect: Phytate can bind to minerals like iron, zinc, and calcium, reducing their absorption.
Hydrogen sulfide is the final product of sulfate-reducing bacteria metabolism. Its high concentration in the gut can affect adversely bowel environment and intestinal microbiota by toxicity and pH lowering.
So, an excess sulfur, combined with a low transit, is going to enhance an unbalance in microbiome. No problem if you don’t eat keto.
However, avoid finishing your meal with nuts, as phytic acid can complicate digestion: Phytates also interact with proteins, which can affect digestibility and digestion in some people because excess phytic acid leads to the inactivation of certain digestive enzymes, such as alpha-amylase, lipase, or proteinase. (18) Calcium absorption could also be reduced by 70% and magnesium by 50%, thus exacerbating malnutrition in some more vulnerable individuals… (19)If I have a 30g / oz. snack of nuts and seeds per day?
If your phytic acid intake reaches 2g per day because you regularly eat a portion of seeds or nuts at the end of a meal (to feel full), you'll need to ensure you're getting enough calcium from food at the menu, or you eat a raw fruit or vegetable with vitamin C (broccoli or an orange), (but no calcium from a supplement), or magnesium. Alternatively, you could drink 50 ml of lemon juice, diluted (citrates) to bind and form phytates in the stomach, which will then be eliminated in your stool.Note also that 2 mg of phytic acid inhibits iron absorption by 18%, 25 mg inhibits 64%, and 250 mg of phytic acid inhibits 82% of iron absorption. However, the addition of ascorbic acid significantly counteracted this inhibition. (6)
Useful info:
Phytic acid in nuts and seeds. How much is too much? It's the dose that makes the poison!
http://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t1076-biodisponibilite-des-mineraux-en-presence-d-acide-phytique#10960
Phytates dans les noix par 100 gr, en gramme (Phytates in nuts per 100g, in grams, or 3.5 oz.)
Amandes 0.35 – 9.42 (almonds) (for shelled nuts, without the peel, 2/3 less phytate)
Noix de cajou 0.19 (cashews)
Noisettes 0.23 – 0.92 (hazelnuts)
Noix de Grenoble 0.76 (English walnuts)
Noix pécan 0.18 – 4.52 (pecan nuts)
Pin pignon 0.20 (pine nuts)
Noix Brésil 0.29 – 6.34 (Brazil nuts)
Noix macadamia 0.15 – 2.62 (macadamia nuts)
Pistaches 0.29 – 2.83 (pistachio)
Some additional values that are truly chilling:
Sésame (peeled) 5.36
Cacaopowder 1.7 à 1.8
NB: The figures vary considerably as they depend on the soil's mineral content (4)
*) Moderate these ones:
P3: almond peanut, walnuts.
H3: almond
Ox3: almond, brazil nut, pine.
S3: /
Walnut: H3 P3 Ox1
Brazil nut: P3 Ox3
Almond: H1 ox3 Sal2
Peanut: H2 P3 Ox1 Sal1
*) OK for these ones:
Pecan: Ox1
Macadamia: Sal1
Table with antinutrients in “nuts”:
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t1959-impact-negatif-de-loxalate-sur-le-metabolisme-chaos-biochimique#28286
H = Histamine, P = Phytate, Ox = oxalate, Sal = Salicylate.
The dose makes the poison. Not a problem if you don’t eat 30 g / 1 oz. “nuts” at the end of a meal, to feel full / saturated. -
@LucH i dont eat nuts my only source of phytates are lentils once in a while, weirdly enough i can take b1 as a bcomolex, isolated b1 even at small dosages 100mg gives me issues, might be deficient in certain b vitamins.
-
@lykos said in I have trouble sleeping:
might be deficient in certain b vitamins.
Nutrients to extract energy in the form of electrons in the transport chain
Energy metabolism in two steps
Step 1 is the catabolic breakdown of carbs, fat, and protein to extract energy in the form of electrons.
Step 2 is the translation of that energy into ATP using oxygen.
Step three: Energy production
Finally, the electrons of NADH and FADH2 are transferred to the electron transport chain (step 3), where they provide energy used to generate ATP molecules; this step needs the input of vitamins B2, B3, B5 and of iron.
Source: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7019700/*) Energy and nutrients needed for metabolism
- Carbs => Pyruvic acid => Acetyl CoA: Mg, B1 B2 (FAD) B3 (NAD) + B5
Required nutrients to extract energy in the form of electrons (electrons in the transport chain) (= oxidative phosphorylation => oxidation-reduction reactions are vital for ATP synthesis) - Acetyl CoA => Citric Acid Circle (Krebs circle): B1, B2 (FAD), B3 (NAD), Mg, Mn, Fe, GSH + B5
*) Proportion of B-vitamins
Good B-complex vitamin preparations contain:- the same amount of vitamins B1, B2, and B6.
- at least 4 times more vitamin B3
- at least 2 times more vitamin B5
Source: Zoelho.com Pharma-Dr.
- Carbs => Pyruvic acid => Acetyl CoA: Mg, B1 B2 (FAD) B3 (NAD) + B5
-
*) Proportion of B-vitamins
Good B-complex vitamin preparations contain:- the same amount of vitamins B1, B2, and B6.
- at least 4 times more vitamin B3
- at least 2 times more vitamin B5
Hey i believe bs work in synergy with each other if u supplement b1 u need b2 b3, thats why i only use a b complex for b vitamins, if we were to use 4x time of b3 at 100mg of b1 that would cause histamine issues and peat said you shouldn't use more that 100mg of b3 in a single use, i think thorne makes the best methylated b complex outthere, even using 100mg of p5p a day would causes issues soon enough, peat rightfully said u should not use more than 10mg a day especially the active form, i dont know where u found those proportions from but they make no sense. How does bcomplex cause cell growth cancer btw is it the methylated b12 and methyfolate?
-
@lykos said in I have trouble sleeping:
i dont know where u found those proportions from but they make no sense.
- I gave the source for the proportions (a pharma-doctor) and for the required nutrients for the assimalitation of macronutrients (link of the study), with a focus on energy. Not only.
- The proportions are given for RDA doses.
Of course if you take +/ 100 mg B1, you aren’t going to do the same (x100) with other B-vitamins.
However, taking HD B1 is going to “burn” more B2, for example. - As you showed a lot of sympathy in your last message, I’m not going to search for the study where I read it to be cautious when taking B1 between 12 and 92 mg (cell growth).
-
@LucH 100mg a day is more than safe, hell even haidut managed to reverse mice tumors based on peats recommendations of using b1, dont think it causes cancer if anything deficiency of b1 causes cancer and most people today are deficient of it because of excessive sugar consumption and lack of nutrients associated with modern diets.
-
@lykos
Haidut is not the new messy (interaction not taken into account; limited target of the study).
Even if I appreciate him much. Great work.
Now, you’d better read again what I said:
The preceding graph was there for general purpose (other readers too).
So I repeat:
B1 should be taken as a RDA (1.2 mg) or above 92 mg. So, 100 mg B1 HCl is fine every day if you metabolize well (listen to your feeling). Not a B50 every day. Otherwise it stimulate cell growth (cancer). See beneath for sources.
NB: RDA + 0.5 mg per 1000 K/cal.Graph with useful nutrients in Krebs cycle.
Note: We often lack B1 (refined carbs in pasta, rice and cereals), magnesium (not brought enough by food) and B6 (low-grade inflammation exhaust it). And we haven’t even talk about other possible highjacks.
For instance we haven't even considered B3 burners to produce tryptophan in patients undergoing a prolonged course of natural orange juice, milk and bone broth for collagen intake.
Considering there is a narrow interaction between B1 B2 B3 and biotin to burn carbs. Not only. But I try to limit the comment.In the context of an "exhausted" patient or someone with borderline mental health issues, here is the metabolic logic for the B3 dosage:
The "Sparing" Dose: 50–100 mg.If a patient is taking 100 mg of B1 but no other B-vitamins, they are pushing the Pyruvate Dehydrogenase (PDH) complex hard to burn through the sugar in a HD orange juice.
• The Problem: HD B1 increases the demand for its "teammate" B3 (NAD+). If the patient isn't supplementing B3, the body will prioritize energy production over everything else.The Tryptophan Drain: To get the needed B3, the liver will aggressively convert Tryptophan to Niacin at a terrible 60:1 ratio, as mentioned in most studies.
• The Minimum Fix: Research suggests that just 50–100 mg of Niacinamide (B3) is usually enough to provide the "pre-formed" niacin the cycle needs. This "shuts off" the body's emergency need to cannibalize Tryptophan, effectively "sparing" it for the brain to use for Serotonin.Why 100 mg B1 alone is risky (without appropriate cofactors)
If you're already doing 100mg of B1 to handle the carbs, you're creating a bottleneck. Without at least 50-100mg of B3 (Niacinamide), the B1 just forces the body to hijack Tryptophan to keep the lights on. You end up 'curing' your metabolism but crashing your serotonin and spiking neurotoxic byproducts like Quinolinic acid. It’s a bad trade for anyone with a sensitive nervous system.Why B2 is part of the "Safety Net"
B2 is technically required to recycle B3. If you are low on B2, your B3 levels will drop faster, which then triggers the Tryptophan-drain you are trying to avoid. Interaction when one is missing.
Not required to take B2 every day. The "Protective" Dose: 5–10 mg of B2 every other day (half-life longer). A B-50 complex 2-3x weekly is usually sufficient too.
Now I could go on with B6, how much is required, why, with someone dealing with low-grade inflammation (arthrosis) or border-line (brain mood). Not all in once.
=> A clue: B6 is the final "key" that turns Tryptophan into Serotonin. Only B6 PLP. Mind excess B6 (with staple, if not 20-25 mg/d.).Sources and references
*) Linking vitamin B1 with cancer cell metabolism (2 examples)
"In 2001, Comin-Anduix et al. evaluated the effect of increasing thiamine supplementation in multiples of the RDI on an Ehrlich ascites tumor-mouse model [58]. Their findings indicated a statistically significant stimulatory effect of thiamine supplementation on tumor growth compared to non-supplemented controls. Moderate doses of 12.5 to 37.5 times the RDI had the greatest stimulatory effect, peaking at approximately 250% greater tumor cell proliferation with 25 times the RDI. Interestingly, at values above 75 times the RDI, no change was found in tumor cell proliferation, and a slight decrease was found at 2,500 times the RDI. This observation suggests that there is a specific range in which thiamine supports proliferation. "
https://cancerandmetabolism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/2049-3002-1-16
& Thiamine and cancer
RDI for adults: "The RDI of thiamine for adults 18 and older is 1.2 mg/d for men and 1.1 mg/d for women. "
Summary (LucH):75 x the RDI: 75 x 1.2 mg = 90 mg minimum B1.
Link of the study.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/2049-3002-1-16*) Thiamine analogues and angiogenesis
The dichotomous effect of thiamine supplementation on cancer cell growth is characterized by growth stimulation at low doses and growth suppression at high doses. Unfortunately, how thiamine reduces cancer cell proliferation is currently unknown.
Source: National Institutes of Health (NIH)
High Dose Vitamin B1 Reduces Proliferation in Cancer Cell Lines Analogous to Dichloroacetate
doi: 10.1007/s00280-014-2386-z 2014. Cancer Chemother Pharmacol.
Conclusion
Our findings suggest that high dose thiamine reduces cancer cell proliferation by a mechanism similar to that described for dichloroacetate (Inhibition of PDKs – Pyruvate Dehydrogenase Kinases). -
@lykos said in I have trouble sleeping:
could diet alone suffice
@lykos said in I have trouble sleeping:
dont think it causes cancer
@lykos said in I have trouble sleeping:
I have trouble sleeping
You'll fix it.
-
@LucH i know most of this, where is the study that proves b complex causes cancer?
