Everything about high blood pressure
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@Peatly Another interesting correlation that thiamine, magnesium, and calcium all have in common is they increase pyruvate production via upregulating the rate-limited enzyme pyruvate dehydrogenase (PDH). Further suggesting a connection between optimal glucose metabolism and BP control.
In regards to your thyroid statement, Broda Barnes' research is invaluable, and is something pretty everyone should read. Especially if they plan on using thyroid.
But there is other 3rd party data that supports Broda Barnes views, just in case people wanted a second opinion. https://www.nature.com/articles/hr201191#Sec15
"Clinical hypothyroidism is known to increase blood pressure levels, and the main underlying cause of this is thought to be the degree of systemic vascular resistance present in patients with clinical hypothyroidism. T3 can directly act on arterial smooth muscle cells of blood vessels to cause vasodilation. In hypothyroidism, declining T3 levels result in an increased vascular resistance, causing an increase in blood pressure. Hypothyroidism can also lead to abnormal sodium metabolism, increased sympathetic nervous system activity and a decreased glomerular filtration rate, which may contribute to the development of hypertension."
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@Mulloch94 Excellent
I was looking through my notes and came across this quote about the role of estrogen in blood pressure issues. It’s from an interview called Estrogen vs Progesterone.
The Role Of Estrogen in Blood Pressure Issues
Extract from interview
00:48:33.880 “And the more acute effects of estrogen dominance in the brain can include chorea, sort of uncontrolled, unexpected movements of the arms and legs and such, and epilepsy or seizures are promoted by estrogen. Water retention is really the first action of estrogen on the cell. In exciting it causes it to take up water. Anything that if you block the oxygen delivery to a cell, it'll take up water, too. So the excitation moves the cell's requirements to a level that can't be sustained so the oxygen becomes deficient. It takes up water and shifts its pH and electrical charge. And that same shift of water into the cell makes the walls of the blood vessels leaky to water. And so the water shifts, letting sodium and water both go into the tissues, causing the feet to swell up while you're standing up or during the night your face will share the water burden. The estrogen, that immediate water logging effect, can be compensated by the adrenal, the cortex, and the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone effect, which is to try to compensate for that leakiness by increasing the sodium retention in the kidney. At first, sodium falls in the estrogen dominance as it goes out of the bloodstream into the tissue, but then activating this blood pressure regulating system, you can shift from low blood pressure and swollen feet to high blood pressure and all of the stress-related cortisol-dominant syndrome. Even at an extreme, you can get gangrene constriction of the blood vessels of the extremities and the calcification of soft tissues that the old endocrine textbooks used to mention. That was another thing that Hans Selye investigated in great depth. He called it calciflaxis and calcirgy, in which the excited blood vessels first constrict and load up on calcium. Estrogen releasing histamine and serotonin precedes that, but calcification and then these injured areas tend to load up with iron in most cases, and the iron increases the breakdown-free radical production in these tissues. So, it can lead to such things as gangrene of the fingers and toes and scleroderma, hardening of the skin in various areas that are stressed. I've seen people recover in just a couple of weeks from scleroderma when they stopped using an estrogen supplement............
And progesterone and thyroid are the things that give you the basic long-term protection.” Ray Peat
Question @Mulloch94 - Dr Peat says "at first sodium falls." As the condition progresses does adding extra salt become helpful or harmful?
I'm going to listen to the full interview again
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@Peatly said in Everything about high blood pressure:
Question @Mulloch94 - Dr Peat says "at first sodium falls." As the condition progresses does adding extra salt become helpful or harmful?
Sounds kind of complicated but it appears he's referring to the water logging effect of estrogen, and how the RAAS steps in to compensate for estrogen's sodium lowering effect.
So if estrogen is activating aldosterone by flushing sodium, and aldosterone tells the kidney's to hold onto sodium, then in my (laymen) opinion is sounds like increasing salt intake solves both of these issues.
The extra salt can both attenuate aldosterone secretion and compensate for estrogen's flushing effects.
However, you should also probably increase potassium as well, because aldosterone's function for holding onto sodium is to dump potassium. So if someone is in this state, it's very likely they're low on potassium, possibly sodium as well, but also they got a unfavorable sodium:potassium balance.
But the underlying cause to all of this is the estrogen dominance to begin with. So that should ultimately be addressed to kill this nasty cycle.
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@Mulloch94 Thank you. I've noticed increase fluid retention which I think might be related to the potassium/sodium ratio. Frankly, I'm never comfortable throwing salt at problems - I can't manage more than one teaspoon a day. Will increase potassium and see what happens.
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@Peatly Yeah I don't really enjoy higher salt diets either. Not sure how people do it, too much salt makes my food uneatable. Only things that I can eat with a fair bit of salt are meat and potatoes. Everything else requires just a pinch for me.
It sounds like if I'm reading Ray's views correctly though, salt restricted diets are less dangerous when estrogen isn't high. Taking a few drops of Progest-E may compensate for a lower salt intake by preventing estrogen's flushing mechanism.
I'm not sure what constitutes as "salt restricted," but considering I average around 2,000-2,500mg a day, and the average American is around 4,000mg (or higher for some), I would say my diet is salt restricted.
I don't think eating "DASH" levels of sodium is good per se, they go crazy with it, recommending people eat up to or less than 1,500mgs daily. I think food would be really bland doing that.
And besides, we've already determined extreme salt restriction has - at best - a modest effect on blood pressure. And that eating sufficient amounts of calcium is more likely to bring BP down to manageable levels.
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From what I’ve read and experienced, it seems likely that cortisol is the main mineralocorticoid receptor ligand. So, if you have any chronic inflammation in your body(gut or otherwise), it is likely you will be unable to lower blood pressure until this is resolved. If that is the case, that should be the main focus.
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blood pressure should depend upon age. As we age, our vessels get less flexible and more clogged and we require higher pressure to prevent tissue hypoxia. People who are in their 60s or 70s or 80s are better off with 145/85 to 165/90 which is shown to be the best for longevity and healthy.
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@Ecstatic_Hamster - I agree and your point is is a very important reminder. One size (120/80) does not fit all.
My GP retired and his replacement wanted to place me on a low dose blood pressure medication. My blood pressure measured in his office was 123/78. He told me that there were new guidelines and that both of my numbers were too high! There was no counseling about diet, exercise or weight. I declined his offer for medication. I supsect that he wanted to hand me a script for a 3 month supply and then have me return to his office every 3 months for the rest of my life to have my blood pressure checked and then write a new script. This is the medical treadmill. They treat the numbers but not the patient.
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@Mulloch94 You are right salt restriction is not necessarily helpful for lowering BP. My question was specific to the situation Peat was talking about when estrogen is high. When he said ‘at first sodium falls’ made me wonder if later on sodium becomes harmful because it is being retained. Anyway, I tend to get the minimum required to restrain aldosterone, which is around 2000mg of sodium (a teaspoon of salt). I do use progest E but it has since stopped making a difference. I have a feeling that Dr. Peat would say we were not getting enough salt.
@DavidPS you have good BP. I can’t believe anyone would want to medicate such low numbers
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@Peatly Yeah probably so, according to Haidut's post about sodium on the old forum we're both consuming low amounts of sodium relative to what's promoted.
But I think as long as we consume just enough to maintain proper mineral balance we should probably be fine.
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@Peatly It's possible we could also supplement with sodium bicarbonate when we can't tolerate anymore salt. Sodium bicarbonate doesn't have the same effects on BP as sodium chloride.
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@DavidPS said in Everything about high blood pressure:
He told me that there were new guidelines and that both of my numbers were too high!
That's insane he tried to prescribe you meds. Even ten points higher at 133/88 BP is still acceptable without any chemical interventions. Probably not needed until you're at 140 or higher.
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@Mulloch94 - I agree about it being insane. But if a doctor prescribes a drug in accordance with the guidelines, he/she is not accountable for any negative health consequences of the prescription. I am thinking about increasing the risk of silent strokes.
Basically, IMHO the body regulates its blood pressure based on its needs. If your blood pressure is presistently high, you need to change your lifestyle (diet, weight, exercise). If you rely on drugs to lower your BP, your systolic pressure may not always be high enough to pump the blood (against gravity) into the upper parts of the brain. The end result could be a slient stroke which damges the brain and accumulate with time. The long term result is to zombify your brain.
I lowered my systolic pressure by about 15 points by lowering the amount of fat in my diet. Dietary fats are known to sludge the blood for hours and necessitates a rise in BP to feed blood to the brain.
Dr. McDougall has a very short video produced by Roy Swank (1909–2008) showing blood sludge and reuleux formation in the blood after a high fat meal. In the second video., Dr. McDougall states that there are no healthy fats. Here on the forum PUFAs (including fish oil) have been recognized as not being healthy. From a blood flow perspective, I could not find any evidence that saturated fats are healthy.
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@DavidPS I haven't been convinced by anyone that saturated fat is inherently healthy. Probably best to keep all fats on the lower side. Peat echoed this logic, despite the large pro-saturated fat trend on the old forum. In one of those herb doctor call-in shows someone asked Ray if it would be best to focus on saturated fat as a prmiary source of calories and he flat out said no.
His words exactly was something like "Get as much sugar or starch as possible, and keep fats to a minimum."
I always found that to be like a checkmate against the pro-saturated fat people. Which is important, because I get a feeling a lot of the former keto bros keep falling back into this logic that saturated fat is good, when it's really just benign in the best of scenarios. Probably not even benign though. It's likely harmful just in different ways from PUFA. The problem with PUFA is they accumulate and disrupt the electron transport chain cause ROS.
But there's some evidence to suggest saturated fat causes endoxemia in humans, which also causes systemic inflammation. In fact, the study posted showed SFA's were worse at this than PUFA's. There's also data that refutes some of this, like dairy fat and coconut fat being good for combating obesity. But the endotoxin thing should be most concerning in my opinion. And if we're going to keep things in a Peaty lens, Ray himself seem to believe sugar AND starch was better than saturated fat.
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@Mulloch94 - I have never heard any stories about someone who had a fat deficiency. If a person eats adequate calories, lipogenesis
provides the needed fat (and oftentimes more). It is my understanding that it is 100% saturated.PeatBot is is my tool of choice for keeping things within a Peaty lens. I read the sources listed at the end of the output. I consider PeatBot to be a bibilography generator. Here for example, William Brown caught my eye in the response to my question. With the help of PeatBot I found the interview that his work was discussed (Ray Peat KMUD: 9-21-12 Calcium and Phosphate Metabolism Full Interview).
User: is a low-fat diet healthy?
Peatbot: The context provided offers insights into a specific case where a low-fat diet, particularly one high in sugar and milk, had positive effects on an individual named William Brown. Brown's diet, which was essentially high in carbohydrates and calcium with a good calcium to phosphorus ratio, led to improvements in his health markers such as cholesterol levels, blood pressure, weight, and the cessation of migraine headaches. It also seemed to increase his metabolic rate and reduce feelings of fatigue.
However, it's important to note that the health effects of a low-fat diet can vary greatly from person to person. The context suggests that for some individuals, especially those with a PUFA (polyunsaturated fatty acids) overload, a diet high in carbohydrates and low in fat might be beneficial. It also mentions that the fats we synthesize from sugars are saturated and are not likely to be stored as excess fat because they don't suppress metabolism like polyunsaturated fats do.
The context also touches on the importance of having some fat in the diet for its effects on the intestine and nutrient absorption, and it suggests that if the fats are mostly saturated (as in butter, coconut oil, or beef or lamb fat), roughly a third of the calories from fat might be appropriate, though this can depend on individual factors like specific foods and activity levels.
Dr. Peat, whose views are represented in the context, seems to advocate for a diet that minimizes polyunsaturated fatty acids due to their breakdown into toxic fragments and inflammatory compounds. He also emphasizes the importance of sugars and minerals in fruits and milk for metabolic activation and prevention of free-radical damage.
In summary, while the context provides an example of a low-fat diet being beneficial for one individual, it also suggests that dietary needs can be highly individualized. It's important to consider personal health conditions, metabolic rates, and nutritional requirements when determining whether a low-fat diet is healthy for someone. Consulting with healthcare professionals and nutritionists is always recommended when making significant dietary changes.
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From the real Ray Peat
“For about 40 years, the agriculture department was listing lard as a saturated fat. So there are hundreds of publications on so-called saturated fat damage, and they were using lard as their saturated fat. Two or three years ago, it came out, someone measured lard saturation and found that it was about 30% PUFA.” Ray Peat
"The things that are high in phosphate have some of the overlapping effects with the inflammatory things. Calcium, if you have a high ratio of calcium to phosphate, calcium happens to suppress the fermentation of fiber and starch in the intestine. So high calcium intake will actually reduce the production of the endotoxin as well as reducing the consequences of your reaction to the endotoxin. The saturated fats, having some fat in your food does various things that can be helpful. There's a germicidal effect of the fatty acids that helps to keep the intestine sterile and you should be able to absorb your fat by roughly half to two-thirds of the way down your small intestine where it's still sterile. But if you eat fat with a fiber, the fat helps to suppress the bacteria and it can help the fiber persist and go all the way through your intestine. So it can turn what would be a harmful fiber-supporting endotoxin into a useful sort of a bowel-stimulating bulk former.” Ray Peat
“Again, in the 1970s, I was attracted to it by reading an article in which they had fed several groups, I think it was 15 groups of rats on different diets, including either a high-fat, saturated fat, a low-saturated fat diet, a very high polyunsaturated fat diet, and a very low-fat diet with only polyunsaturated, and so on, so that they had 15 different compositions, very high-fat, very low-fat, pure saturated, pure unsaturated. And at the end of their life, the leanest rats were the ones that ate the saturated coconut oil diet, regardless of whether it was high-fat or low-fat. And the fat animals were the ones that had the pure polyunsaturated fat. Again, even a low-fat diet, if it was purely polyunsaturated, made them the fattest animals. So it wasn't the quantity, it was the unsaturation. In the last several years, people have started talking about the saturation index, meaning the proportion of saturated fats to polyunsaturated in your tissues, and cancer patients are very low on the saturation index. So it's not only obesity-producing, it's associated with high incidence of cancer to have highly polyunsaturated fat diet.” Ray Peat
A successful depopulation agenda requires high excess death rates, lower birth rates and for the majority to vilify those that question it.
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@DavidPS I have to admit peatbot is not too bad but you can’t beat the real thing!
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looks like I had the right hunch
the woman's PTH is double the reference range
high tCO2 in blood, high SB, ionised calcium in the upper range, normal vitamin D
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@ursidae Good call. Please keep us posted. Would love to know how she resolves this.
A successful depopulation agenda requires high excess death rates, lower birth rates and for the majority to vilify those that question it.
