The ethics of having children while in sub-standard metabolic condition

[DonkeyDude]

@Tahodama said in The ethics of having children while in sub-standard metabolic condition:

Are you content with your own upbringing? Can you objectively measure its quality and say it meets a standard worthy of perpetuation?

This was the easiest question in this post, and I can answer it truthfully for my wife too without consulting her: absolutely not. In fact, I have a long list of things not to do that is directly inspired by my own past. And this is a part of my desire to have kids. No matter what I do in life, I will never change my past, my childhood, my formative experiences; I cannot do that for myself, but I can create that gift for someone else, someone new.

@Tahodama said in The ethics of having children while in sub-standard metabolic condition:

I mean, I was born and raised under some pretty piss-poor circumstances, and I still feel obligated to muster gratefulness for the fact. I'm certainly not gonna say my parents committing some sin by creating me.

Cannot one be grateful for their existence and yet contend their parents were incompetent? I'm certainly happy that my wife exists, yet it's pretty obvious to me her parents were not qualified to properly rear and train a puppy, much less an actual person.

But indeed, it does seem that it's hard to come up with an ethical standard for reproduction. It's just too deeply intertwined with mystery of life and existence it general. My hindbrain's reaction to this is to push even more strongly to just take a leap of faith.

[Tahodama]

@DonkeyDude You can certainly say so; I'm speaking in the terms of moral theology, and admitting one's parents weren't ideal is not the same as saying they committed an unjust act, although that's being very technical.

Nobody in this day and age is thriving everybody is fucked in some way or another plus everybodys diet is shit

This is both a saddening and encouraging statement. Sad, in the sense that life quality is so poor, or to put it with more stinging words: So far below what it could be! But encouraging in the sense that this almost endows one with a sense of duty to procreate in order that humans collectively can rise to higher standards of life.
I think it's almost a noble instinct to be hesitant to procreate, for it at least displays an awareness of the common good (a trait of hajnal civilization) and concern for societal wellbeing. But in a case when we're all at a disadvantage it might be time to put those concerns aside, at least when most of us have an equal chance to provide society with better progeny, and thus equal duty.

[zawisza]

@DonkeyDude I'll take a different angle:

The nature of marriage is ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring. One cannot then fully conform to the nature of marriage without children when he's physically able to have them.

It is then unethical to not have children in marriage.

[DonkeyDude]

I think I have finally realized what my big contention is. I do believe any kids we have will have a massive advantage due to Peaty knowledge and other generally useful skills/philosophy we have picked up over the years. We are basically in the situation of a sports coach that knows everything there is about getting to a championship, yet just doesn't have the physical prerequisites to use this knowledge himself.

Even the money will not be that big of a problem long term - our kids and grandkids stand to eventually inherit from like 20-30 bare branch aunts and uncles, and despite our general loserdom we have put together a nest egg that in time, God willing, should grow enough to enable our kids to perpetually NEET in our basement if they wish so.

What I'm really worried about is that they will hate us for having them. Despite lofty future prospects, their childhood will likely be quite hard and they will have to solve their problems on their own. In a sense, I fell like I'm passing my duty to secure safe and easy life to the next generation. That's probably selfish, and I probably overestimate the problem.

[Gull]

@DonkeyDude Why would they hate you ? I mean outside of the teen phase where it's 'cool' to hate your parents ?

[zawisza]

@DonkeyDude said in The ethics of having children while in sub-standard metabolic condition:

What I'm really worried about is that they will hate us for having them. Despite lofty future prospects, their childhood will likely be quite hard and they will have to solve their problems on their own. In a sense, I fell like I'm passing my duty to secure safe and easy life to the next generation. That's probably selfish, and I probably overestimate the problem.

That's understandable, I would likely feel similar if I had a chance to have children today. I think this is something that a good psychiatrist could help with, though it will be hard to find one.

Personally, what parents did or failed to provide is never an issue as long as they're aware of their shortcomings and care and try to improve.

[Kvirion]

@DonkeyDude Have you also considered the consequences of bringing a child to a world that will with high probability encounter collapse pretty soon? Our current lifestyle is impossible to sustain, Earth is already overly exploited - both culturally and ecologically...

[DonkeyDude]

@Gull said in The ethics of having children while in sub-standard metabolic condition:

Why would they hate you ? I mean outside of the teen phase where it's 'cool' to hate your parents ?

For being losers and failing to provide them with material security. I have met many people who recollect the feeling of shame due to their parents not behaving like adults (I have, no shit, read a post online by a person who wanted to know if arguing "persistent childhood embarrassment due to the father being under influence in public" will get them out of paying old-age support). Then, again, I've also met children of total failures who still idolize them as long as the parent in question was even a little bit warm and loving.

[DonkeyDude]

@zawisza said in The ethics of having children while in sub-standard metabolic condition:

I think this is something that a good psychiatrist could help with, though it will be hard to find one.

Well, I'm returning to some kind of psychiatric care soon anyway, maybe it does help. My last stint in a psych ward has enabled me to get over my difficulties with getting a female companion; maybe I need another one to get over my difficulties with becoming a father.

[DonkeyDude]

@Kvirion with this I would take my chances. It may come tomorrow, or after I die, and I do not think it wise to put everything on indefinite hold and passively wait for a catastrophe. And if some global collapse does happen, I believe I could raise my children to be better prepared to survive and exploit it than most other people. Maybe I end up a progenitor of some post-apocalypse ruling dynasty.

[zawisza]

@DonkeyDude said in The ethics of having children while in sub-standard metabolic condition:

I've also met children of total failures who still idolize them as long as the parent in question was even a little bit warm and loving.

Personally, I've never met someone who had any dislike for their parents unless they were divorced, addicts, or acting like children all the time. I think as long as parent tries to be better and spends time with children then it's very very unlikely that they will end up disliking him.

@DonkeyDude said in The ethics of having children while in sub-standard metabolic condition:

Well, I'm returning to some kind of psychiatric care soon anyway, maybe it does help.

For the sake of my consciousness I'll add that it's very important to be wary of any psych meds and psychiatrists since very few have a moral compass of any sort, but you probably know this better than I.

[DonkeyDude]

@zawisza said in The ethics of having children while in sub-standard metabolic condition:

For the sake of my consciousness I'll add that it's very important to be wary of any psych meds and psychiatrists since very few have a moral compass of any sort, but you probably know this better than I.

I for sure wish I had never taken SSRIs and I can't believe that they still continue to be given out like candy. I also have been recently surprised to learn that there's a special diagnostic category for psych patients who refuse to comply with pharmaceutical therapy, like it was a pathology or even a disease in its own right. Thanks for a warning anyway.

[ThinPicking]

@Kvirion said in The ethics of having children while in sub-standard metabolic condition:

Have you also considered the consequences of bringing a child to a world that will with high probability encounter collapse pretty soon? Our current lifestyle is impossible to sustain, Earth is already overly exploited - both culturally and ecologically...

Kivirion. I must try to arrest this vision. "collapse" is not a matter of probability at all. It's a matter of choices and perspectives, which will hinge on conversations. Many uncomfortable. Please be careful with your speech and imagery. At first and foremost for yourself.

There's nothing new under the sun. The current 0.04% of human history is simply a bit Mayan in its nature. That is to say we appear to appease the deference of sacrifice on a grand scale. Fundamentally that is why some seem somewhat desperate for "crisis" to cover their losses, while chickens come home to roost. If you want to go there, you will. And if you don't, you won't. Life will go on either way. Until the last man wakes up, smells the Peaty coffee and faces the music.

This casual observer thinks the problem for many is closer to home than comfort would allow for. At some point, he may be capable of describing it with poetry and science. But in many ways. Raymond already did. Not to mention it's in the Bible. And probably the Quran. And probably the Torah. And what better cardiac stimulant is there than a son, a daughter, a brother, or a sister. Don't worry. Because you're already surrounded. Now the hard part.

[Kvirion]

@ThinPicking said in The ethics of having children while in sub-standard metabolic condition:

Kvirion. I must try to arrest this vision. "collapse" is not a matter of probability at all. It's a matter of choices and perspectives, which will hinge on conversations.

LOL! Are you trying to claim that our world and its future are just social constructs?

The path to a collapse is clear. And knowing the inertia of human civilization it is pretty inevitable... The choice was taken a long time ago in 1980-ties, when the West decided to enter an exploitative neoliberal path... Or even earlier during the industrial revolution...
We just don't know the exact date and scale of the upcoming mess yet...

Please be careful with your speech and imagery. At first and foremost for yourself.

I'm saying that responsibly as a well-trained sense-maker and risk assessor. What are your credentials?
BTW False blind optimism will make things worse. Proactive people like to be prepared. But maybe NPCs/normies like to live in a false illusion of safety... "All will be great, just mindlessly consume more."

There's nothing new under the sun. The current 0.04% of human history is simply a bit Mayan in its nature.

Yep, and the history likes to repeat itself, but this time a fall will be considerably worse...
Every future parent should know about this and make a conscious decision...

[zawisza]

@Kvirion said in The ethics of having children while in sub-standard metabolic condition:

I'm saying that responsibly as a well-trained sense-maker and risk assessor. What are your credentials?

Too bad I'm even-better-trained sense-maker and risk assessor. So, what are YOUR credentials, huh? Moreover, I have officially recognised and independently calibrated retardation detector and your comment set a new measurement record. Well done.

[Kvirion]

@zawisza LOL, you like to deny reality, as all fans of Konfederacja do.

[zawisza]

@Kvirion said in The ethics of having children while in sub-standard metabolic condition:

fans of Konfederacja

Huh? Why would I be their fan? Judging your age by your overly liberal use of "LOL" and childish level of blackpill you're more in line with an average voter of theirs.

[ThinPicking]

@Kvirion said in The ethics of having children while in sub-standard metabolic condition:

LOL! Are you trying to claim that our world and its future are just social constructs?

The path to a collapse is clear. And knowing the inertia of human civilization it is pretty inevitable... The choice was taken a long time ago in 1980-ties, when the West decided to enter an exploitative neoliberal path... Or even earlier during the industrial revolution...

No chap. You're just a bit thick, hopefully temporarily.

"clear"... to you. You're only capable of prophesying your life. Or others you might be able to deceive. I'm not reading much capability in that department.

@Kvirion said in The ethics of having children while in sub-standard metabolic condition:

Please be careful with your speech and imagery. At first and foremost for yourself.

That is your image, not mine. Aside, the film itself is brilliant. And steeped in metaphor for the avoidance of the very thing you're clearly desperate to hang on to.

Good luck with it and have a great day.

[Kvirion]

@zawisza LOL, so you are a fan of PiS - assessing by your lack of a sense of humor, naivety, and grumpy/pompous style? It's even worse...

BTW your assessment couldn't be more wrong, I voted for Razem.

[Kvirion]

@ThinPicking said in The ethics of having children while in sub-standard metabolic condition:

Good luck with it and have a great day.

Yep, good luck to you too, you will need it more than I do with your denial of reality... But nevertheless, enjoy the last days of our civilization!