Calorie deficit but gaining fat?
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@revenant said in Calorie deficit but gaining fat?:
It's a fact only because it cannot ever be proven wrong; because it's a tautology.
lol....my god. It's been proven correct through testing it by millions and millions of people.
@revenant said in Calorie deficit but gaining fat?:
What is INTERESTING however, is why one person of the same size and activity level can eat 2000 kcal and lose weight and another one will gain weight. How do you explain that with CICO?
That's not a thing. The variation between the two will be very small. What does cause major differences is one person vastly over-estimating, or vastly under-estimating how much they're eating, which happens A LOT.
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@revenant said in Calorie deficit but gaining fat?:
There has to be a way to eat 2500 kcal per day and not gain weight, since some people clearly manage to eat that much (and much more in fact).
Yeah, it's called have a high activity level that increases your TDEE. Work out 1-2 hour a day, and/or have a job with high activity level.
This is all super basic stuff that every entry level gym bro learns....
Why is this such a mystery to "Peaters"?
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@Hearthfire said in Calorie deficit but gaining fat?:
@revenant said in Calorie deficit but gaining fat?:
It's a fact only because it cannot ever be proven wrong; because it's a tautology.
lol....my god. It's been proven correct through testing it by millions and millions of people.
@revenant said in Calorie deficit but gaining fat?:
What is INTERESTING however, is why one person of the same size and activity level can eat 2000 kcal and lose weight and another one will gain weight. How do you explain that with CICO?
That's not a thing. The variation between the two will be very small. What does cause major differences is one person vastly over-estimating, or vastly under-estimating how much they're eating, which happens A LOT.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-exercise_activity_thermogenesis
"Besides differences in body composition, it represents most of the variation in energy expenditure across individuals and populations, accounting from 6-10 percent to as much as 50 percent of energy expenditure in highly active individuals.[4]"
You consider that "very small"?
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@Hearthfire said in Calorie deficit but gaining fat?:
@revenant said in Calorie deficit but gaining fat?:
There has to be a way to eat 2500 kcal per day and not gain weight, since some people clearly manage to eat that much (and much more in fact).
Yeah, it's called have a high activity level that increases your TDEE. Work out 1-2 hour a day, and/or have a job with high activity level.
This is all super basic stuff that every entry level gym bro learns....
Why is this such a mystery to "Peaters"?
There are studies suggesting that added exercise simply means you will spend less energy on other functions of the body (including NEAT), for example the studies on the Hadza:
But even if that weren't the case, exercising will just make you hungrier. So eating 1500 kcal without exercise is the same as eating 2000 kcal with exercise -- you'll be miserable and destroying your metabolism either way. Yes, you can pull it off maybe 3-4 times in your lifetime, but after that it stops working; or you'll have to reduce calories further and further.
Yeah, it is super basic gym bro stuff, which is why it's wrong.
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@revenant you should post your diet components. you didnt list any of the meals you eat so how can anyone tell. maybe you are undereating some micros. maybe your macro balance is suboptimal too. maybe you need more veg to balance acidity to increase muscle (yes this is a thing)
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Hmm yes, well it varies but here's is an example of a sub-2000 kcal day:
And here's a 3100 kcal day:
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I usually supplement 200-400 mg of magnesium and some B vitamins. Occasionally take 15 mg zinc or 2 mg copper. Started taking 5000-10000 IU of vitamin D per day since spending time in the sun during summer did not raise my vitamin D levels. Also vitamin A sometimes, maybe 1000-5000 IU per day.
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i would add way more vegetables. if you're interested in body recomp and athletic performance your meals should really be starch meat and veg and then eggshell to balance the phosphorus. that's my opinion. a bit of zucchini isn't enough plant food. the fruits dont really count, yeah they have micronutrients but not as much as cooked leafs or other veg.
if youre trying to lose fat it doesnt make sense to have less nutrient dense stuff like cheesecake and cokes. you should be using whatever opportunity that anytime you eat something in a lower calorie diet to get the maximum nutrient density in. you only have a certain amount of calories to eat right now so you should be choosing the most nutrient dense things.
yeah i saw the rat studies with how they lost fat on coca cola. show me anyone who has done that and thrived.
milk with sugars imo is a good meal replacement for convenience and not a staple of the diet. i.e. you eat 4-5 meals a day, you can have 1 as milk or other dairy stuff.
and i dont think fruit should be meals. fruit can accompany a meal and help with digestion (e.g. digestive enzymes in pineapple etc.) but it is a waste of an opportunity to make fruit a meal. again talking about body recomp an performance. not leisurely vacation diet. you would get way more out of using that opportunity to get nutrient density in.
add cooked leaves and cabbages and bell peppers and lettuces and stuff. ive never experienced the downsides of these that people on rpf postulated about for years. in fact i did way better when i added all this stuff i took out after browsing rpf and taking ray's words too literally and personally
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@revenant you're holding your own great! Don’t listen to the gym bros, idk why they’re even here — this is a place for nuance not biolayne nonsense we already know. Hur dur Yea No kidding, out of 5 million people the average will lose weight on CICO.
The outliers don’t find results in popular solutions and fall thru the cracks until they start finding answers from Ray Peat after going around every mountain of mainstream and alternative solutions...
It’s always cool that someone hasn’t suffered from chronically low temps and pulse for 10 years, but they typically don’t understand the severity of attempting CICO in the hypo-metabolic state.
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Danny Roddy shared Broda Barnes’ findings that you can’t lose weight no matter the attempt, when your temps are low enough. CICO methods don’t help. Optimal scenario, You just burn water weight, which promptly returns the minute you restore carbs, or just die of a stroke before you reach your dream body.
Ray shared case studies on obese women who were consuming 600 calories a day while working out, not losing weight.
Principally, it’s first and foremost a hormonal issue. Cortisol and estrogen literally cause weight gain.
I know that in my keto carnivore days, I’d fast and calorie restrict for so long, with no success. It seemed to plateau at the same point at which I was getting severe hypo symptoms… no wonder… I can directly refute @RawGoatMilk88 on that one. It was not for lack of trying and diligence that that failed…
I’ve gotten my pulse and temps up pretty consistently now, and now I can at least lose weight on days I sleep more than 8 hours. I do understand the principles of CICO (and play around with low fat/calorie counting), but I still consistently do better when I increase my icecream intake before bed, and restrict my protein intake, and up my gelatin intake. So far my weight loss has happened in bouts of feeling good on tasty food until full, but no mechanical CICO consistency has done the same for me.
The goal is to get your core temps and pulse up consistently high, and then do short term CICO.
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@Bling5 said in Calorie deficit but gaining fat?:
i would add way more vegetables. if you're interested in body recomp and athletic performance your meals should really be starch meat and veg and then eggshell to balance the phosphorus. that's my opinion. a bit of zucchini isn't enough plant food. the fruits dont really count, yeah they have micronutrients but not as much as cooked leafs or other veg.
if youre trying to lose fat it doesnt make sense to have less nutrient dense stuff like cheesecake and cokes. you should be using whatever opportunity that anytime you eat something in a lower calorie diet to get the maximum nutrient density in. you only have a certain amount of calories to eat right now so you should be choosing the most nutrient dense things.
yeah i saw the rat studies with how they lost fat on coca cola. show me anyone who has done that and thrived.
milk with sugars imo is a good meal replacement for convenience and not a staple of the diet. i.e. you eat 4-5 meals a day, you can have 1 as milk or other dairy stuff.
and i dont think fruit should be meals. fruit can accompany a meal and help with digestion (e.g. digestive enzymes in pineapple etc.) but it is a waste of an opportunity to make fruit a meal. again talking about body recomp an performance. not leisurely vacation diet. you would get way more out of using that opportunity to get nutrient density in.
add cooked leaves and cabbages and bell peppers and lettuces and stuff. ive never experienced the downsides of these that people on rpf postulated about for years. in fact i did way better when i added all this stuff i took out after browsing rpf and taking ray's words too literally and personally
That's worth a shot I guess. Thanks.
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@LetTheRedeemed said in Calorie deficit but gaining fat?:
Danny Roddy shared Broda Barnes’ findings that you can’t lose weight no matter the attempt, when your temps are low enough. CICO methods don’t help. Optimal scenario, You just burn water weight, which promptly returns the minute you restore carbs, or just die of a stroke before you reach your dream body.
Ray shared case studies on obese women who were consuming 600 calories a day while working out, not losing weight.
Principally, it’s first and foremost a hormonal issue. Cortisol and estrogen literally cause weight gain.
I know that in my keto carnivore days, I’d fast and calorie restrict for so long, with no success. It seemed to plateau at the same point at which I was getting severe hypo symptoms… no wonder… I can directly refute @RawGoatMilk88 on that one. It was not for lack of trying and diligence that that failed…
I’ve gotten my pulse and temps up pretty consistently now, and now I can at least lose weight on days I sleep more than 8 hours. I do understand the principles of CICO (and play around with low fat/calorie counting), but I still consistently do better when I increase my icecream intake before bed, and restrict my protein intake, and up my gelatin intake. So far my weight loss has happened in bouts of feeling good on tasty food until full, but no mechanical CICO consistency has done the same for me.
The goal is to get your core temps and pulse up consistently high, and then do short term CICO.
How did you get your temps up? My pulse seems fine but temps are under 37 almost always.
T3/T4 don't seem to do much for me.
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@revenant using t3 and t4… it took around half a year — about a full year at this point to get consistency and have stress resilience. For some this can take longer, and some nuances for how to go about it. I would definitely get a consult about thyroid usage with Danny Roddy, Jay Feldman, or Mike Fave, if you haven’t already.
One nuance — Was your cholesterol high when you started it?
One simple one is increasing your salt intake (if you haven’t already) — that can take some time to reach optimal levels
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@Bling5
FYI Dairy is only nutrients. Cooked veggies can be great.
yeah i saw the rat studies with how they lost fat on coca cola. show me anyone who has done that and thrived.
Me.
and i dont think fruit should be meals. fruit can accompany a meal and help with digestion (e.g. digestive enzymes in pineapple etc.) but it is a waste of an opportunity to make fruit a meal. again talking about body recomp an performance. not leisurely vacation diet. you would get way more out of using that opportunity to get nutrient density in.
Wonderful point. The most consistent way to improve metabolism and digestion is a well balanced macro meal. Including balancing micronutrients when possible.
Isolated fruit/sugar sources are fine as a snack — but I’ve found a tiny bit of protein in some form, to be handy between meals to balance high carb snacks.
add cooked leaves and cabbages and bell peppers and lettuces and stuff. ive never experienced the downsides of these that people on rpf postulated about for years. in fact i did way better when i added all this stuff i took out after browsing rpf and taking ray's words too literally and personally
Cooked veggies with all the tasty cofactors like a smidge of butter and cheese are great, and a great way to increase salt and gelatin intake in a palatable manner. There are methods to producing the vegetable stock in a safe manner, but for many people, including myself, something like cabbage is very powerfully anti-thyroid. For many people like myself, almost any amount of nightshades like bell peppers are terrible on digestion and brain fog. Of course I want to live my life so I trial and error where I can get away with something to make enjoyable food, but due to the anti nutrient factors, that’s very important for anyone to be aware of. If I were OP, I think it would behoove to look for recipes that remove goitrogens and phytoestrogens — be that boiling for x time and tossing the water, etc.
With that said, there is no nutrient missing from a diet of weekly oysters and liver, with daily dairy and juice consumption — way cheaper, too.
You may have a decent metabolism/resilient digestion, and the amounts you’re consuming aren’t impacting you. I know there are suggestions Ray makes that I don’t stick to religiously, and that’s where I’ve learned to be mindful of context (that basically means “what can I get away with lol”).