RE: The Sugar Diet/Honey Diet and FGF21: The Research (EB #133) My Response to Jay Feldman
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Nice, yeah the FGF21 thing has been pretty confusing. I like the cautionary inputs by some of these people like Jay and Mike. But I also can't deny I feel really good eating a pretty damn low amount of protein. Especially for me. Like I'm 6'3-6'4ish, and consuming only 60-70 grams a day is insane for someone of my stature, but I still feel pretty damn good. Way better than doing the low-fat, moderate protein, high carb thing I was doing beforehand.
I think the one trap people may get themselves caught up in is assuming their benefits are from FGF21 when they could be from various different things associated with lower protein diets. Lower protein diets also reduce mTOR, ACTH, cortisol, gluconeogenesis, prolactin, serotonin, etc. So I think if the pro-FGF21 side should caution themselves on anything it's assuming they know what mechanism from a low-protein diet is actually making them feel better.
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@Mulloch94 said in RE: The Sugar Diet/Honey Diet and FGF21: The Research (EB #133) My Response to Jay Feldman:
I think the one trap people may get themselves caught up in is assuming their benefits are from FGF21 when they could be from various different things associated with lower protein diets. Lower protein diets also reduce mTOR, ACTH, cortisol, gluconeogenesis, prolactin, serotonin, etc. So I think if the pro-FGF21 side should caution themselves on anything it's assuming they know what mechanism from a low-protein diet is actually making them feel better.
True, but I'd argue the reduction in those things is downstream from FGF21 as well.
The benefits of MR are almost exclusviely downstream from FGF21. ("...mice lacking FGF21 fail to exhibit metabolic responses to protein restriction...")
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35393401/ -
@Mauritio said in RE: The Sugar Diet/Honey Diet and FGF21: The Research (EB #133) My Response to Jay Feldman:
@Mulloch94 said in RE: The Sugar Diet/Honey Diet and FGF21: The Research (EB #133) My Response to Jay Feldman:
I think the one trap people may get themselves caught up in is assuming their benefits are from FGF21 when they could be from various different things associated with lower protein diets. Lower protein diets also reduce mTOR, ACTH, cortisol, gluconeogenesis, prolactin, serotonin, etc. So I think if the pro-FGF21 side should caution themselves on anything it's assuming they know what mechanism from a low-protein diet is actually making them feel better.
True, but I'd argue the reduction in those things is downstream from FGF21 as well.
The benefits of MR are almost exclusviely downstream from FGF21. ("...mice lacking FGF21 fail to exhibit metabolic responses to protein restriction...")
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35393401/I think it's possible some of the benefits are due to maximizing muscle-protein synthesis. This pathway typically gets overloaded on normal protein diets. It's never really a good idea of have more than 20-30 grams in one sitting, because the rest of it is just going to get converted to glucose via gluconeogenesis and this will raise cortisol.
Naturally a restricted protein intake will maximize this pathway because you're really never taking in more protein than you can send down this pathway. And the only thing that can really raise this threshold is to get bigger (more muscle) and/or do steroids. So for most average sized people that aren't juicing, this would be perfect.
I do think some of that stuff about "FGF21 resistance" needs better research. People shouldn't just be passing this off as a thing when there's not a lot of evidence that supports it. Especially when you got guys like Durianrider who've been eating high-sugar for like 30+ fucking years without getting "resistant" to it. So I'm inclined to think that's bullshit.
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@Mulloch94 said in RE: The Sugar Diet/Honey Diet and FGF21: The Research (EB #133) My Response to Jay Feldman:
I do think some of that stuff about "FGF21 resistance" needs better research. People shouldn't just be passing this off as a thing when there's not a lot of evidence that supports it. Especially when you got guys like Durianrider who've been eating high-sugar for like 30+ fucking years without getting "resistant" to it. So I'm inclined to think that's bullshit.
You seem to think that FGF21 resistance is caused by staying on a low protein diet. Yet there's many people that are FGF21 resistant that haven't even tried it. It also has to do with your general health, especially liver health. So if you're unhealthy to begin with you might be FGF21 resistant that probably goes hand in hand with leptin and insulin resistance.
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@ThinPicking Thanks for more papers. I take it you're a FGF21 skeptic?
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It's just another abstraction to me. Why someone like Anabology would take an interest in it and seem to do well with protein restriction is going to have something to do with his recent behaviour and long standing context. Mauritio's right, it's another tool.
Likewise for someone like me who prefers a lot of everything (spiritually fat or something). I only found protein restriction helpful when I was more in to taking isolated amino's and trying to understand what they were doing to me.
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@ThinPicking said in RE: The Sugar Diet/Honey Diet and FGF21: The Research (EB #133) My Response to Jay Feldman:
Likewise for someone like me who prefers a lot of everything (spiritually fat or something). I only found protein restriction helpful when I was more in to taking isolated amino's and trying to understand what they were doing to me.
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I found protein restriction to be helpful before I was taking thyroid. I think from just my anecdotal experience it has a glycogen sparing effect for me. Essentially filling in the role thyroid hormone should be doing. However I still notice benefits from even today. I stay satiated much longer....which may be a sign I haven't actually dialed in the perfect thyroid dose for me yet idk.
As a disclaimer I don't do the so called "honey diet." I think a lot of people can mess up by backloading there calories to their final meal of the day. Excellent way to overeat without thinking about it.
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Great breakdown of the fgf21 literature. A nice contrast to Jays fear mongering “ahhh sugars gonna kill you ahhhh!” Ha! That’s a joke, and a Cole Robinson quote.
My question is, anabologies honey diet formulation was eating one pound of ground beef a night… every night. Are you guys @ThinPicking @Mauritio calling this MR or protein restriction? That seems wrong if you are. Or am I wrong? I know Jay is saying this throughout his worst YouTube video but I think he was just ripping on guys like Cole Durianrider etc that tell people to just eat sugar for days on end. In my estimation the Honey Diet is the only “sugar diet” I’ve heard of that is based in pro metabolic ideas and should be the one scrutinized. And if that’s the case I like to add to Maurito’s thinking, on fructose… I heard Ray in an old generative energy ep talk about fructose specifically lowers reductive stress.
Jay was slamming on fgf21 increasing reductive stress.
Well maybe it balances out?
Then Georgi chimes in later on fructose lowers phosphorus to calcium ratio, by conversion of fructose into glucose consumes phosphorus Georgi adds.
GE#36 @52:30.
I am grateful to anabolgy for the honey diet even though I very loosely fallow it. It has inspired my eating way, and I’ve gained energy, brain function and lost some fat. And I think it was unproductive of Jay to engage in the debate on too broad of a generalization whilst just picking about the fgf21 component.
Protein restriction for most of the day is not the same as living a protein restricted life.
Id be interested in hearing actual criticism of the honey diet rather than Jays knee jerk reaction.
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@dapose said in RE: The Sugar Diet/Honey Diet and FGF21: The Research (EB #133) My Response to Jay Feldman:
My question is, anabologies honey diet formulation was eating one pound of ground beef a night… every night. Are you guys @ThinPicking @Mauritio calling this MR or protein restriction? That seems wrong if you are
No you're right that's not protein restriction. The honey diet would fall under the category of "intermittent protein restriction".
The sugar diet/ sugar fast would be real protein restriction.
They're all grouped together in this video and in my response as well, because they all increase FGF21. And contrary to Jay's statement it does not take 7 days to increase FGF21 significantly, but less than 2 h. See the OP.
So, the honey diet qualifies for " things that increase FGF21" since for a significant part of the day you do get the FGF21 increase.@dapose said in RE: The Sugar Diet/Honey Diet and FGF21: The Research (EB #133) My Response to Jay Feldman:
Jay was slamming on fgf21 increasing reductive stress.
Well maybe it balances out?I have a part on that in the OP. Look for "Reductive stress" and the following part on the ETC. If you read those quotes and studies it seems clear to me that FGF21 isn't a cause of reductive stress but a reaction to it.
@dapose said in RE: The Sugar Diet/Honey Diet and FGF21: The Research (EB #133) My Response to Jay Feldman:
Then Georgi chimes in later on fructose lowers phosphorus to calcium ratio, by conversion of fructose into glucose consumes phosphorus
Klotho lowers phosphate. And FGF21 increases Klotho. So FGF21 lowers phosphate, thereby increasing the calcium/phosphorus ratio. Making it possible to have a decent ratio while mostly consuming fruit and sugar and little dairy.
I have a post about Klotho and FGF21 on X.@dapose said in RE: The Sugar Diet/Honey Diet and FGF21: The Research (EB #133) My Response to Jay Feldman:
Id be interested in hearing actual criticism of the honey diet rather than Jays knee jerk reaction.
Same! I'm not saying the honey diet is the end all be all. Or that it is the perfect diet.
I think it's a good diet, for some people, for a limited amount of time.
It's a good tool.I'd love to hear a more nuanced criticism, because what Jay put out was quite twisted and one sided. It's like he had his conclusion first and then looked at the studies.
