The future of oral testosterone
-
@wester130 The user you quoted has no understanding of chemistry.
19-Nortestosterone / Nandrolone, has very little structural similarity to progesterone - it is structurally similar to testosterone - it is simply testosterone, that is missing a methyl group on the 18th carbon of the molecule. Both nandrolone and progesterone both have keto groups on position 3 and a double bond on carbon 4, but that's the only similarity they have.
Nandrolone is an "estrane" whereas progesterone is a "pregnane".
Progesterone:
Nandrolone
Testosterone:
Nandrolone / 19-nor testosterone and it's derivatives are extremely potent agonists of the androgen receptor and the progesterone receptor.
But the latter doesn't make 19-nor testosterone derivatives anabolic; nandrolone has an affinity to the AR 50% more than testosterone. This is why it is more anabolic.
Progesterone itself actually acts as a mild glucocorticoid; binding to & activating it's receptor. It increases the transfer of amino acids out of muscle tissue - just search up "progesteorne binding affinity to the glucocorticoid receptor" and "progesterone tryrosine amino transferase" - plenty of in vivo and in vitro studies show that that progesterone itself is a mild glucocorticoid.
In some rodents, progesterone is a precursor to testosterone and can be anabolic via that pathway, but in humans at least, progesterone doesn't increase testosterone and is not anabolic.
-
Essentially, yes. But, they don’t disclose how much 4-androstenediol is in each capsule. Instead they call it something like “cyclo 4-diol”I would have to email them to find out if 4 androstenediol is even in it.
-
After a couple days of research, I also found a lot of positive reviews for a newly developed hormone that does not require enzymatic conversion and that is according to many older users on AnabolicMinds forums and r/prohormones reminiscent of old school prohormones.
It’s called “3-AD”. It is 5-androstenediol with the hydroxyl on 3 at alpha position instead of beta. They call it “dehydroandrosterol”, but chemically it is what I described.
What the logs specifically mention is the muscle hardness and pumps being like oral steroids like dbol.
-
@dht Bumping , this
-
To my knowledge progesterone is anti-androgenic in men and provides direct negative feedback to the HPTA in a similar way that estrogen does.
-
@jamezb46 Lol
-
@jamezb46
i found thishttps://www.stay-focused.com/en/extreme-muscle-builder/warrior-labz-4-androstenediol-50mg/60-caps
also, the google forum search gives some very interesting reading
-
@jamezb46 Just lol
-
@dht expand if you want. To my understanding too, progesterone does seem to increase metabolism and the metabolism of glucocorticoids, but it does act as an inhibitor of LH, blocks androgen uptake into cells and has a high binding affinity to & activation of the GR - it does so less than cortisol, so endogenously producing 0.00001mg of progesterone a minute for example, could antagonise cortisol as it has a lower binding affinity and activation of the GR than cortisol, but if you are taking multiple mgs of progesterone in a single sitting ? It would act as a glucocorticoid, as shown in multiple studies in vitro and in vivo.
In rodents it does heavily convert into testosterone, which is why it is anabolic in these animals, but in humans, 100mg of progesterone is as anabolic as 1mg of testosterone in females.
So my conclusion is that it has a neutral on anabolism in humans
-
i formally retract my condescending and incorrect comments about science nerds and instead am recognizing the valuable and worthwhile discussion in this thread
-
@alfredoolivas said in The future of oral testosterone:
but it does act as an inhibitor of LH
it likely inhibits LH transiently (a non issue if you take androgens with it, like i suggested) while the high doses of progesterone are active, it doesn't inhibit FSH at all.
@alfredoolivas said in The future of oral testosterone:
blocks androgen uptake into cells
this is a non issue if you take androgens with it (like i suggested)
@alfredoolivas said in The future of oral testosterone:
it has a lower binding affinity and activation of the GR than cortisol, but if you are taking multiple mgs of progesterone in a single sitting ? It would act as a glucocorticoid, as shown in multiple studies in vitro and in vivo.
isn't it almost as powerful of a GR antagonist as tren per that study haidut had posted?
-
@jamezb46 I too enjoy counter signaling haidut
https://lowtoxinforum.com/threads/pregnenolone-p5-fully-prevents-testicular-atrophy-due-to-steroid-ab-use-or-high-estrogen.31880/ -
@dht said in The future of oral testosterone:
it likely inhibits LH transiently (a non issue if you take androgens with it, like i suggested) while the high doses of progesterone are active, it doesn't inhibit FSH at all.
@dht said in The future of oral testosterone:
this is a non issue if you take androgens with it (like i suggested)
Yes, but neither of these things are useful for anabolism nor increasing androgens.
@dht said in The future of oral testosterone:
isn't it almost as powerful of a GR antagonist as tren per that study haidut had posted?
No. Tren itself is a weak GR antagonist, and binds to the GR with an affinity of 3% compared to dexamethasone.
Tren blocks glucocorticoids effects via another mechanism, such as reduced glucocorticoid receptor expression hence it lowers the amino transferases / the transfer of amino acids out of the muscle / catabolism
Progesterone has 8-20% of the affinity of the GR compared to dexamethasone (from what I have read and remember), and activatives it, and therefore increases the amino transferases, such as tyrosine amino transferase (TAT), increasing the transfer of amino acids out of the muscle / catabolism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmacodynamics_of_progesterone
https://digicomst.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/1985_04_70.pdf
As you see progeserone increased tyrosine transferase in vitro.
And in vivo it increased the expression of tyrosine amino transferase, decreased liver protein content mildly and increased muscle proteien mildy in ewes.
This was an experiment done over 2 days with a single 50mg of progesterone injection in ewes.
I must preferace, that I don't think progesterone's catabolism is significant nor is it's anabolism but my point is that it isn't laughable that James thinks it isn't useful in promoting anabolism.
-
@alfredoolivas https://www.google.com/search?q=progesterone+tyrosine+aminotransferase&sca_esv=a55453b1a2e256c7&rlz=1C5CHFA_enIE1125IE1125&sxsrf=AE3TifMJdy148J2Tj4Z-xXaFpxc7CS6Aqw%3A1749071173656&ei=RbVAaLvmJ62QhbIPiIDO8AQ&oq=progesterone+t&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiDnByb2dlc3Rlcm9uZSB0KgIIADIEECMYJzIEECMYJzIKEAAYgAQYQxiKBTIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQABiABDIKEAAYgAQYQxiKBUiYClBBWP0BcAF4AZABAJgBMKABW6oBATK4AQHIAQD4AQGYAgKgAmjCAg0QABiABBixAxhDGIoFmAMAiAYBkgcBMqAH1BKyBwEyuAdowgcDMi0yyAcM&sclient=gws-wiz-serp
A google search, shows lots of studies show progesterone alone increases tryosine amino transferasee, but blocks the stimulation of tyrosine amino transferase when adminstered with corticosteroids.
So endougenously it may act as a partial agonist of the GR, blocking cortisol, a stronger agonist, effects, but when delivered in high quanitities, it may act as a GR as it binds to and activates the GR.
For example; we produce 5-15mg of cortisol a day, and therefore per hour, we produce around 0.5mg of cortisol an hour. If you endogenously produce 0.1mg of progesterone it would act as a functional antagonist to cortisol, but adminstering 15mg of progesterone exogenously would cause progesterone to act as an agonist independently.
Messy stuff, I wouldn't consider exogenous progesterone pro anabolic
-
@alfredoolivas said in The future of oral testosterone:
but my point is that it isn't laughable that James thinks it isn't useful in promoting anabolism.
its laughable that he thinks progesterone is shutting anybody down significantly especially since i said to create a cortinon like product
@alfredoolivas said in The future of oral testosterone:
Yes, but neither of these things are useful for anabolism nor increasing androgens.
taking androgens with an anti estrogen isn't useful for anabolism?
-
@alfredoolivas said in The future of oral testosterone:
Messy stuff, I wouldn't consider exogenous progesterone pro anabolic
Alone progesterone isn't pro anabolic that's why for the millionth time I suggested to take androgens with it, Less circulating estrogen and doses of androgens that your physiology would naturally create, would perform and behave a lot more effectively (due to less aromatization) . this is literally stuff Haidut brought up 10 years ago on raypeatforum
-
What role is progesterone supposed to play exactly? If you're using it as an AI, why not just use aromasin or proviron or masteron instead?
I don't think you're correct that it prevents shutdown and in fact I think it directly causes it.
I don't think progesterone is a male hormone. It's for women. We have DHT. We need it for sure in small quantities but I would not be looking to raise it much as a man
-
@jamezb46 said in The future of oral testosterone:
What role is progesterone supposed to play exactly? If you're using it as an AI, why not just use aromasin or proviron or masteron instead?
we are aware progesterone antagonizes estrogen right? we are aware that estrogen is "the atrophic factor for both male and female gonads" according to Haidut... testosterone enanthate into excessive estrogen is what causes LH and FSH to plummet. progesterone just reverses this
aromasin would work almost identically instead of progesterone, haidut commented on his prostate cancer tumor study during christmas holiday 2024 where he used DHT and exemestane that he could have used progesterone instead of asin and gotten better results. (because prostate cancer is an estrogen driven process) https://x.com/haidut/status/1871926201247477883
@jamezb46 said in The future of oral testosterone:
I don't think you're correct that it prevents shutdown and in fact I think it directly causes it.
right now you could inject 25mg of testosterone enanthate, feel your testicles close up and topically apply 5-6mgs of progesterone anywhere on your body and you would feel your testicles open up. Or you could read anything Haidut has ever posted on raypeatforum https://lowtoxinforum.com/threads/pregnenolone-p5-fully-prevents-testicular-atrophy-due-to-steroid-ab-use-or-high-estrogen.31880/
even if progesterone does inhibit LH, it inhibits it transiently (a non-issue if you take androgens at the same time), meaning if you want to take an excessive amount of androgens it should be done with progesterone to avoid excessive aromatization to avoid nuking FSH and sperm production
@jamezb46 said in The future of oral testosterone:
I don't think progesterone is a male hormone. It's for women. We have DHT. We need it for sure in small quantities but I would not be looking to raise it much as a man
never said progesterone was a male hormone, but its not feminizing in the presence of androgens. progesterone production in males and females is about the same up until age 12 iirc
really don't understand how I need to say the same thing in different forum posts over and over to get this point across to you when this is old news from haidut
-
@dht I respect your opinion but Haidut is not a bodybuilder. Show me the athletes/bodybuilders who followed this progesterone advice and I will take it more seriously. Just because he said it doesn't make it true.
As far as I am concerned, it is at best a theory with some evidence in rats or mice. There is plenty of evidence against it.
Consider this study which shows argues that progesterone causes gyno in hyperthyroid men who again according to Haidut have LOW estrogen
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3335607/
I largely agree that excess aromatization is probably what largely contributes to HPTA shutdown.
But the solution I think should be low dose test, an AI if necessary, and plenty of DHT or Mast.
I guess I neither see the need for elevating progesterone in men nor do I see any evidence that it actually works in practice. I am more than happy to believe in it if people want to come forward with their actual progress and experience but until then I'm skeptical of it.
Even Peat would sometimes say on podcasts/radio shows that 20 mg progesterone for men could give them a numb penis so I think he understood the risks.
-
@jamezb46 said in The future of oral testosterone:
I respect your opinion but Haidut is not a bodybuilder. Show me the athletes/bodybuilders who followed this progesterone advice and I will take it more seriously. Just because he said it doesn't make it true.
Last I checked this is a bioenergetics forum not bodybuilding forum, you are free to experiment on yourself if you have the aptitude and the awareness of ongoing hormonal changes happening in your body.
@jamezb46 said in The future of oral testosterone:
I largely agree that excess aromatization is probably what largely contributes to HPTA shutdown.
But the solution I think should be low dose test, an AI if necessary, and plenty of DHT or Mast.
You agree with me but you want to achieve something in a less effective way?
@jamezb46 said in The future of oral testosterone:
Even Peat would sometimes say on podcasts/radio shows that 20 mg progesterone for men could give them a numb penis so I think he understood the risks.
Do you have any reading comprehension? I literally said progesterone likely transiently inhibits LH(if it even does inhibit LH), then yes you will have no androgens produced for a brief time and your penis will cease to work. Where did I suggest to ingest progesterone without androgens?
@jamezb46 said in The future of oral testosterone:
https://sci-hub.se/https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3335607/
High serum free estrogen and normal free testosterone levels have been reported to cause gynecomastia in hyperthyroid men (2). The fact that progesterone enhances estrogen stimulation of mammary gland growth (6) strongly suggests that high serum progesterone levels in hyperthyroid men may contribute to the development of gynecomastia in cooperation with the imbalance between estrogen and testosterone. Epidermal growth factor has been reported to influence mammary gland growth (14), but its effects on gynecomastia in hyperthyroid men are
not known.You really cherry pick the worst studies, even the last one you posted completely went against yourself.
@jamezb46 said in The future of oral testosterone:
I guess I neither see the need for elevating progesterone in men nor do I see any evidence that it actually works in practice. I am more than happy to believe in it if people want to come forward with their actual progress and experience but until then I'm skeptical of it.
- Links inconclusive study twice
- Doesn't listen to endocrinological fact
- Ignores criticism and new ideas
- understands that p4 can achieve a hormonal state but wants to do it in a less effective way
Like what are we doing here? I give you a way to take infinity androgens and you still managed to not comprehend my point? Is this a troll to keep me replying? Have you ever experimented on yourself? Are you new to peat and haidut's ideas?
