mk4 dosing?
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@GRay said in mk4 dosing?:
do we need to take a break, or cycle from these vitamins then even when taken at low nutritional doses?
I have only a partial view. Difficult to answer yes or no. E.g. if you take a medicine or eat one grapefruit thrice a week, it can impact the detox pathway Cyp450.
Consult a list to be sure.Advice one shot
Explanation for other readers:
I can give an advice but this is a one shot. Understand you’d better search for the right one before asking. So, only about one product.
I need a link + the correct name + excipients. Here:
Brand Name: Superior Source Vitamin K 2 Mk ' Menaquinone Mcg Quick Dissolve Sublingual Tablets 60 Count. As MK4.
Ingredients:
Vitamin K (as menaquinone-4) 500 mcg, Stevia Leaf Extract 1 mg. Other Ingredients: Lactose (milk) and acacia gum.
My conclusion: 500 mcg MK4 in a tablet. OK, no beurk ingredient.
As said before: there won’t have any problem when taking 2 “liposoluble vitamins” / quinones separated by 30-60’, with any of these elements: Vitamins E K, Co-Q10 and polyphenols.You said:
*) “I would take 1 500 mcg tablet only when I take Ca supplement”.
"I generally take my vitamin E with breakfast, then I would take K2 at lunch probably"
=> My Comment: OK.
If you want a pertinent advice, I need a full spectrum, to avoid losing energy
Which kind of Ca, in one dose? => 200-250 Ca element to optimize assimilation.
Vitamin E: mix or only alpha? => Mix required. Not every day (2x/wk if 400 UI). OK if 20-25 mcg.*) “do we need to take a break, or cycle from these vitamins then even when taken at low nutritional doses?”
My comment: Unless you’re sure there is no side-effect (with a thorough search) with the molecule, the dose and the duration, you can’t answer this question with certainty.
"Moderate usage" is subjective. It’s always better to take sth in a cure. Let’s say often 3-4 weeks.
If you’re over 45 years, the answer won’t be the same for antioxidants or proteins (collagen), for instance.
A concrete answer: vitamin C 500 mg. Ok every day. Vitamin E (mix toco) 20-25 mg OK every day. Not if 400 UI vit E.
The answer often depends on half-life of the molecule. To make it simple (simplified answer).Search Google with: Cytochrome p450 drug interactions pdf
Cytochrome P450 (CYP) enzymes play a crucial role in drug metabolism, and interactions can significantly impact drug efficacy and safety. These interactions can occur when one drug affects the activity of a CYP enzyme, thereby altering the metabolism of another drug.
Educational Resources:
Websites like UpToDate provide detailed information on specific drugs and their interactions with CYP enzymes.
https://www.uptodate.com/contents/image?imageKey=CARD%2F76992
NB: I can write a specific post if someone wants it. Easier to use / for searching.
I have doc on cyp450 -
Detox way Cyp450
All toxins go through liver-CYP450 enzymes:
All toxins go through liver-CYP450 enzymes:
Toxins are fats soluble.*) Phase 1 detox: Required nutrients
Vitamins B
Folic acid
Glutathione
Antioxidants as:
Milk Thistle
Carotenoids
Vitamin E
Vitamin C*) Phase 2 detox: Required nutrients
Selenium
Sulphur
Amino acids:
Glutamine
Glycine
Taurine
CysteineNB: 1 person about 10 is a poor metabolizer and have a deficiency in CYP2D6
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@GRay Ray Peat recommends taking 1mg of vitamin K for every 325mg aspirin to counteract the blood thinning effect
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@heyman isn't only the k1 that effect clotting?
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@LucH as always. thanks for your detailed explanation.
I didn't catch the acacia gum on the mk4 product. isn't a concern? I believe Peat was warning against gums in general?
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@GRay said in mk4 dosing?:
I didn't catch the acacia gum on the mk4 product. isn't a concern?
Acacia is considered as a fiber (for the envelop), in fact. It shouldn't be a problem in most cases (tiny amount and hypo allergenic).
Short answer: Less is best.
Fillers, binders, and artificial ingredients are common in many supplements. An estimated 90% of all “vitamin supplements” contain manufacturing fillers.
We have to consider 2 main situations, outside the case of specific intolerance (in a person already marked as intolerant, via the immune system during a previous repeated intake).- Capsule shell: gelatin (softgel) should be preferably chosen to fiber capsule.
- 1 or 2 fillers are acceptable for let’s say 80 % people. If you’re intolerant (SIBO / SIFO) a powder formula without excipient should be taken to avoid useless molecules. However, you’d better lower inflammation first, before adding one layer to an intolerant / irritated digestive system. If you force the assimilation, the immune system is going to mark what could be beneficial at another staple.
- Vary the type of fillers if you take a HD supplement. See below for prevention.
*) Gelatin should be chosen preferably
Gelatin should be chosen in preference to fiber. Gelatin (animal or plant-based, depending on your preference, if available) is better digested and eliminated. Fiber capsules (often made from pullulan, derived from acacia) is not directly digested / assimilated.
Fiber capsules are a plant-based alternative to gelatin capsules, offering an option free of animal products. Plant based often means made of pullulan, a polysaccharide derived from fermentation, is renowned for its purity and good digestive tolerance. Derived from but it does no longer create a direct fermented reaction except it’s fuel for commensal bacteria. So it depends on the ground (susceptibility).
*) Can acacia or gum used in several supplements modify the microbiome?
Yes, acacia or gum, when used in supplements, can potentially modify the gut microbiome. These substances are often indigestible by human enzymes and primarily serve as a food source for beneficial bacteria in the gut, acting as prebiotics. Beneficial but not always, due to differences in gut bacteria composition, if there is “a safe balance” or not.Dosage and Tolerance
While generally considered safe, some individuals may experience digestive discomfort (like gas or bloating) at higher doses.
As a general guide, the recommendations are useful but most of us are already aware of it. So, for conclusion, best is to limit the frequency and the amount to 1 or 2 fillers, not always the same when taking 5 softgels at once, which could become problematic at one staple of your encountered digestive problem, more or less intolerant if you don’t change your way of acting.Need to be repeated
Less is best. Vary the fillers when following a cure. Make pause … If filler content is a concern, consider powdered forms or liquid supplements when practical, as these often use fewer additives. This should be a solid, practical recommendation that resonates with a majority of users without overcomplicating things. Sorry, but there's no super-simplistic, all-in-one solution (multivitamin) when you want to take a pharmacological dosage.
Remind: you have to modulate and listen to your sensations and ease off when the body sends a signal. Don't get stubborn either because at another point in your life it already worked well...*) Red flags for health supplements
Need a apart post. -
There’s also this. Doesn’t sound like it is harmful but some might not like the look:
Post in thread 'Ray Peat Email Advice Depository'
https://lowtoxinforum.com/threads/ray-peat-email-advice-depository.1035/post-875311Q: Hello Dr. Peat
I've been using 45mg K2 [mk4] for almost a month now and my bones above eyes [The brow ridge] has - I think - increased substantially.
Do you think that's a good sign or should I lower the dose because aesthetically it doesn't look very appealing to be honest hahaha
Much love Dr. Peat
RP: I would reduce the amount. When I was in my late 20s my brow ridges thickened, and I didn’t think it looked good, but I got used to it. I think it’s a normal effect of the hormonal changes of maturing.
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I ended up getting the MK4 from Forefront Health, they gave me and extra 10% off
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@GRay GRay
I ended up getting the MK4 from Forefront Health, they gave me and extra 10% off=> It seems to be the same product as Thorne research (Mk4 with only MCT oil). But with another packaging presentation. Same dosage, I think. I won't follow the recommendations on the site. I'd rather limit the posology to 2 x 1 mg (1 000 mcg) / a day. Remind the amount of fat required 14 - 25 - 35 g. Target +/ 25 g minimum.
There is now an extra 25 % off (73 $ - 25% = 55 $), instead of a welcome gift of 10%.
Delete cookies if you go back to the site when ordering at another staple.
However It could be 15% when comparing with iherb.com.
No mention about the delivery cost.
Could be shipped abroad , in most countries, they said.
Fine
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@LucH thanks.
I think I ended up buying it for about $48, plus $5 shipping, I didn't want to spend $70 for the Thorne. I made the purchase on Monday and it was delivered today. I also bought their egg shell powder. All of this will last me long time.
1mg once or twice per day with Ca is what I was planning to do. Thanks! their dosage recommendation is definitely too much.
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@GRay said in mk4 dosing?:
egg shell powder
egg shell powder is essentially calcium carbonate (+ useful nutrients).
We need P to absorb Ca. But not at a meal with HD meat (acid pH 3-4).
I won't take Ca supplement if my acid-base balance is fine (K Mg Ca) and P in the lines.
I target 850 mg Ca. When I'm under the target like today (450 mg), I add phospho'cal 1.6 g, + 1 half dose Mg bisglycinate to reach my level (+/ 420 mg Mg) (1/2 of 3 g) + 1 big dose potassium bicarbonate (3.2 g).
So, no need to be over 550 mg Ca (like the hunter-gatherer tribes in the African savannah.
I do / proceed like the reed: Bend (flexibility) but I do not break
