Copper deficiency,histamine intolerance, fatigue
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Greetings friends, i have been suffering from severe copper deficiency for long time which resulted in histamine intolerance and general system collapse. It's hard to navigate with my affliction because doctors here are incompetent idiots. I supplemented 4mg of copper for 6 months which improved my health but despite that i still have low cerruloplasmin and copper serum among other b vitamins like b1 which i cannot supplement in any form as it gives me severe histamine issues. Currently i am taking zinc 10mg with 2mg of copper because i think i tank my zinc levels after half year of taking copper, b6 10mg as p5p for dao support, taurine, magnesium glycinate 400mg a day.My ferritin is really low 20 despite eating meat, i am desperate i don't know what to do anymore, i have no energy or motivation to get out of bed for almost a year now and despite having some improvement with copper most of the symptoms persist.
@LucH -
@lykos I use liver once a week or every 2 weeks by eating 200g and some cacao daily on top of the 4mg of copper
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@lykos said in Copper deficiency,histamine intolerance, fatigue:
Some cacao daily
Hi,
Not a good idea cacao, as a usual take.Here is one part of the info. Take time to read. Wait before trying to link the dots.
How to deal with histamine intolerance
Addressing the root-cause of histamine intolerance
Most of the strategies for managing histamine intolerance prevent histamine from being either produced (histidine decarboxylase inhibitors) or released (mast cell stabilizers).1st step: food
Managing a histamine intolerance tends to involve making dietary changes, taking antihistamines or enzyme supplements, and avoiding or limiting the use of some foods.
So, we are advised to reduce histamine levels by incorporating more low-histamine foods into our diet, such as fresh vegetables, fruits, and meats. Avoid or limit high-histamine foods, such as fermented products, aged cheeses, and processed meats.
Note that some foods don’t bring histamine (H1-3) but free histamine (L1-3). L stands for liberator.
For instance: canned tuna brings a high amount of histamine (H3), whereas orange fruit is a high liberator (L3). Citrus fruits don’t bring histamine but induce an allergic reaction in which histamine is freed.2nd step: Help to get rid of excess
- Useful nutrient for DAO enzyme: Namely Cu 1.5 mg.
- DAO supplement like NaturDAO. 1 000 000 Units
- Avoid DAO-Blocking Foods (like alcohol, tea and some nutraceutics, e.g. high B1)
- Support Your Gut Health (intolerance leads to immune reaction). Key point (dysbiosis).
- Balance Your Fat Intake (less omega-6, more omega-9 (olive oil), SFA is OK).[1]
- Methylation deficiency: 2 enzymes are required to deal with histamine: DAO and HNMT. HNMT = histamine N-methyltransferase. MTHFR polymorphism (gene defect) will make methylcobalamin supplement required (methyl-B12). HNMT transfers a methyl group (CH3) from S-adenosyl-L-methionine (SAM-e) to histamine, in order to inactivate / neutralize excess histamine. By degrading and regulating levels of intracellular histamine specifically within the CNS, HNMT ensures the proper functioning of neural pathways related to arousal, sleep-wake cycles, and other essential brain functions. To ensure adequate levels of HNMT enzymes, and Increase HNMT activity, a SAM-e supplement could be brought (as methyl donors).
Scientists have identified various nutrients that effectively boost DAO Enzymes levels. These nutrients include Omega-3 fatty acids, saturated fats, phosphorus, calcium, zinc, magnesium, iron, and vitamin B12.[1] Foods rich in these nutrients can help enhance DAO production. Help, not solve the problem.
3rd step: Calm down mastocytes
How to manage with release of various mast cell mediators. To lower excessive reaction.
For instance:- Quercetin anhydride. (Mind the kind). Once 500 mg a day. I take 2x 400 mg at the beginning, in crisis
- Herbal tea (gingimber and thyme + honey) in order to moderate theobromine (coffee, chocolate and especially tea) (=>methylxanthines such as theobromine and theophylline).
Sources and references
0. Useful Info- Dr. Becky Campbell – Free Histamine Guide.
- https://lowhistamineeats.com/clear-histamine-naturally/
- Reversing Histamine Intolerance Takes More Than a Low-Histamine Diet
https://caplanhealthinstitute.com/reversing-histamine-intolerance-takes-more-than-a-low-histamine-diet/ - https://drtaniadempsey.com/5-natural-antihistamines-to-combat-allergies/
- “Effect of dietary fatty acid and micronutrient intake/energy ratio on serum diamine oxidase activity in healthy women”
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28606572/
Results: Serum DAO activity in both phases was positively correlated with intake of long-chain fatty acids, saturated fatty acids, and monounsaturated fatty acids (P < 0.05). Intake of phosphorus, calcium, zinc, magnesium, iron, and vitamin B12 during the luteal phase was positively correlated with serum DAO activity (P < 0.05). - “Nutrient-induced inflammation in the intestine – PMC –NCBI.”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4520304/
Understanding the relationship between nutrient absorption and intestinal inflammation is important. We need a better understanding of the interaction between enterocytes and the intestinal immune cells in nutrient absorption and the gut inflammatory responses. - The increased release of histamine and DAO is specific to fat feeding and is not shared by carbohydrate or protein feeding.
Wollin A, Wang XL, Tso P. Nutrients regulate diamine oxidase release from intestinal mucosa. Am J Physiol. 1998;275:R969–R975. [PubMed] [Google Scholar] - Adopting a leaky gut protocol or a diet rich in anti-inflammatory foods and high in antioxidants, can be instrumental in addressing the root-problem.
Improving gut health and taking DAO are pillars of histamine intolerance treatment.
https://caplanhealthinstitute.com/reversing-histamine-intolerance-takes-more-than-a-low-histamine-diet/
Useful nutrients include vitamins B6, copper, iron, magnesium, phosphorus, zinc, and vitamin C. (a,b) Each of these nutrients both support and modulate immune function for the better.
a. Maintz L, Novak N. Histamine and histamine intolerance. Am J Clin Nutr. 2007;85(5):1185-1196. doi:10.1093/ajcn/85.5.1185
b. Miyoshi M, Ueno M, Matsuo M, et al. Effect of dietary fatty acid and micronutrient intake/energy ratio on serum diamine oxidase activity in healthy women. Nutrition. 2017;39-40:67-70. doi:10.1016/j.nut.2017.03.004 - Le syndrome d'activation des mastocytes et l'activation inappropriée des mastocytes
Les symptômes proviennent principalement de la libération de médiateurs et comprennent un prurit, des bouffées de chaleur et une dyspepsie due à une hypersécrétion gastrique. - Mastocytes et inflammation
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1169833012001615
L’importance de la fonction du mastocyte dans la réponse inflammatoire est mieux connue depuis quelques années. Son rôle dans certaines pathologies inflammatoires chroniques comme la polyarthrite rhumatoïde (PR) et la sclérose en plaque (SEP) montre l’importance de développer des thérapeutiques ciblant le mastocyte. L’efficacité des inhibiteurs de tyrosine kinase ciblant le récepteur c-Kit du mastocyte a déjà été démontrée dans plusieurs études, notamment dans la PR, l’asthme et la SEP.
I'll give another link tomorrow.
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@LucH thank you
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*) Comment traiter l’intolérance à l’histamine
Cercle vicieux entre l’histamine et la dominance en estrogène
=> In French. Translator needed. But there are English source + a clear picture to illustrate the differences origins of the problem.
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t1745-traiter-lintolerance-a-lhistamine?highlight=histamine
*) PDF
https://www.mastzellaktivierung.info/en/downloads.html
=> Food list + choose language.
Useful info (same source):
https://www.histaminintoleranz.ch/en/therapy.html
https://www.mastzellaktivierung.info/en/downloads.html#lm_en (PDF listing, sorting alphabetically by category or not) if you want to choose your language. -
Some examples taken from the list
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Useful info but need time to read and assimilate. See the original source for the links. Here, only partial.
6 Steps to Naturally Treat Histamine Intolerance
Link given by Allil (Dr. Allil OVERTON – RP forum member)
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/6-steps-to-naturally-treat-histamine-intolerance.44138/
Debunking Histamine Intolerance (by Jacob Gordon, INHC)
Histamine intolerance comes from an imbalance of consumed/produced histamine and ability to break it down. R
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/85/5/1185.long
In this post, we will discuss the underlying pathology of the newly demonized phenomenon called histamine intolerance: mast cells, dysbiosis, food poisoning, histamine metabolism/liberators and hormone dysregulation.
Contents:- Is Histamine Intolerance Real?
https://mybiohack.com/blog/treat-deal-mthfr-probiotics-dysbiosis-mast-cells-histamine-intolerance-diet-naturally#intolerance - Symptoms Of Histamine Overproduction
https://mybiohack.com/blog/treat-deal-mthfr-probiotics-dysbiosis-mast-cells-histamine-intolerance-diet-naturally#symptoms - Dysbiosis And SIBO
https://mybiohack.com/blog/treat-deal-mthfr-probiotics-dysbiosis-mast-cells-histamine-intolerance-diet-naturally#dysbiosis - Mast Cells And Cellular Stress
https://mybiohack.com/blog/treat-deal-mthfr-probiotics-dysbiosis-mast-cells-histamine-intolerance-diet-naturally#mastcells - Food Poisoning
https://mybiohack.com/blog/treat-deal-mthfr-probiotics-dysbiosis-mast-cells-histamine-intolerance-diet-naturally#foodpoisoning - Metabolism of Histamine
https://mybiohack.com/blog/treat-deal-mthfr-probiotics-dysbiosis-mast-cells-histamine-intolerance-diet-naturally#metabolism - Histamine-Releasing Factor
https://mybiohack.com/blog/treat-deal-mthfr-probiotics-dysbiosis-mast-cells-histamine-intolerance-diet-naturally#hrf - Biomarkers And Tests
https://mybiohack.com/blog/treat-deal-mthfr-probiotics-dysbiosis-mast-cells-histamine-intolerance-diet-naturally#tests - Protocol To Treat High Histamine
https://mybiohack.com/blog/treat-deal-mthfr-probiotics-dysbiosis-mast-cells-histamine-intolerance-diet-naturally#treatment - Problems With Anti-Histamines
https://mybiohack.com/blog/treat-deal-mthfr-probiotics-dysbiosis-mast-cells-histamine-intolerance-diet-naturally#anti-histamines - Genetics
https://mybiohack.com/blog/treat-deal-mthfr-probiotics-dysbiosis-mast-cells-histamine-intolerance-diet-naturally#genetics - More Research
https://mybiohack.com/blog/treat-deal-mthfr-probiotics-dysbiosis-mast-cells-histamine-intolerance-diet-naturally#more - Video
https://youtu.be/oegwsQDmFVM
Excerpt (partial)
Is Histamine Intolerance Real?
When we look at components to the body, it’s easy to vilify a single "evil" culprit as the problem to a disease.
For example, for the longest time the sugar industry had a majority of Americans (even top doctors at the American Heart Association) convinced that fat consumption itself caused heart disease and obesity. R
We now know that is false, as coronary artery disease (COD) comes from multiple inflammatory factors and obesity is a byproduct of an inflammatory reaction of adipose tissue. R
The takeaway is that there is no single culprit in either of those situations and that's why it is important to look at these diseases from multiple angles.
Histamine has been vilified, but it is naturally produced in the body and is very important for blood vasodilation, immune response, neurotransmitter production, circadian rhythms, etc. R
Histamine intolerance is a phenomenon after an epigenetic switch from:
• Drug-induced histamine receptor (hetero/auto) dysfunction (i.e. chronic histamine liberator/blocker use)
• Genetics variations in abilities to handle amines (i.e. MAO, DAO, HNMT, VDR)
• Improper conversion and utilization of biogenic amines and/or lectin sensitivity (i.e. BH4, TH)
• Infectious/allergic nature (e.g. haptens, dysbiosis, biotoxins, broken NRF2, overactive mast cells, lectins)
After this switch becomes turned on/up, most people have trouble turning it back off/down.
In this post, we will discuss scientific ways to improve and fix this histaminergic phenomenon.Symptoms of Histamine Overproduction
Most people with histamine intolerance will appear to have allergic reactions to everything, especially foods high in histamine.
https://mybiohack.com/blog/treat-deal-mthfr-probiotics-dysbiosis-mast-cells-histamine-intolerance-diet-naturally#treatment (Food high in histamine).
Allergic-like symptoms from histamine can vary and may include: (not exclusive list)
• Anxiety
• Coughing
• Diarrhea
• Headaches
• Insomnia
• Itchiness (of eyes, skin, throat)
• Migraines
• Nausea
• Runny nose
• Sneezing
• Vertigo
• Vomiting
Histamine plays a role in: (not exclusive list)
• Allergic reactions (and food allergies) R R
• Anapylaxis R
• Arthritis (in psoriasis and rheumatoid arthritis) R
• Cancer Progression R
• Gastric secretion and appetite R
• Inflammatory conditions R
• Learning and memory R R
• Mastocytosis R
• Mast cell activation disorder (MCAD)
• Motor system R R
• Muscle contraction R
• Neurological Disorders R
• Regulating the sleep-wake cycle R R
• Skin Disorders (like psoriasis, eczema, vitiligo, etc) R R R
Dysbiosis And SIBO
Dysbiosis, or an imbalance of the gut bacteria, can cause problems with histamine. R
Inflammasomes are sensors that regulate the gut.
When their message gets scrambled or their communication gets damaged, bacterial overgrowth can happen.
One example of communication scrambling is with inflammation, and it hijacks the communication of the bacteria, SIgA, and mast cells (more on mast cells can be seen in next section). R R R
If there is an overgrowth of histamine producing bacteria, it may cause excitation in the gut, stimulating mast cells causing further dysregulation.
This is a double edged sword, as histamine is extremely important to keep gastric motility and prevent diseases like Small Intestinal Bacterial Overgrowth (SIBO). R
Mast Cells And Cellular Stress
Figure 1: Brain – Gut Axis and Intolerance to Histamine - Is Histamine Intolerance Real?
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@LucH should i continue supplementing copper and it says that iron helps with diamine oxidase activity, my ferittin is really low like 15-20, albeit peat talked against iron supplements? I believe i have the mthfr gene which makes sense, I will test homocysteine and the mthfr gene test.
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@lykos
lykos said:
should i continue supplementing copper
=> Yes. half dose. Target 1.5 Cu and Zn 10 mg"and it says that iron helps with diamine oxidase activity, my ferritin is really low like 15-20, albeit peat talked against iron supplements?"
=> Taking a iron supplement is not a good idea when We can manage in another way. RP is right. We'll do the job but later. You need cofactors to assimilate it and improve ferritin level.
There is enough iron in meat, specially in red meat (beef). 100 g (3.5 oz. is enough). We'll see this problem later."I believe i have the mthfr gene which makes sense, I will test homocysteine and the mthfr gene test."
=> No need to test homocysteine now. It's too high when there is inflammation.
It you take coenzymes vitamins B 9 and B12 to bypass gene MTHFR deficiency, you don't really need to test the possible deficiency.
Except on next blood test, to see how you've managed. So wait for the test.The priority is to keep candidiasis under control to vary food nutrients and to optimize metabolism.
I'll give you a link to my personal log later, to see how I manage an histamine problem, with a suspicion of young SIBO.
First of all, read and get informed on how to practice if you don't want to exhaust energy (often called adrenal exhaustion) because of stress in excess and inappropriate / insufficient measure.
Sth you can't tolerate now because of irritable bowels or inability to process histamine (overreaction) could be soon appreciated / needed.
Wait before deciding what to do. You need a plan.
Get informed first. -
@LucH Looking forward to your message, i used in the past oregano oil, l-glutamine and carrot salad to combat candida and dysbiosis but i still use sugar daily and some grains.
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@lykos said in Copper deficiency,histamine intolerance, fatigue:
i used in the past oregano oil, l-glutamine and carrot salad to combat candida and dysbiosis but i still use sugar daily and some grains.
no glutamine: It feeds candida albicans.
Oregano oil is a good choice when trying to dampen bacterial overgrowth but it's not sufficient. Mind the fact you're not going to kill all "bad bacteria". Some are able to adapt and to hide behind a biofilm.
We want to weaken the whole microbiome and to occupy the place afterwards with beneficial ones. I'll show you what I did, though I didn't suffer from candidose.
You can't manage with a carrot salad or cascara when your linen tissue is irritated.- Priority to fihgt candidose.
- Calm down irritation.
- get rid of bacterial overgrowth. With a plan. Think long term.
SIBO is taken into account. - seed the intestinal flora. Nature doesn't like emptiness. Mind the kind probiotics you take as supplement (contraindications with histamine problems).
- deal with leaky gut to assimilate the right nutrients.
- Lower stress: relax technique and adequate molecules to help but well tolerated. E.g. L-theanine.
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@LucH said in Copper deficiency,histamine intolerance, fatigue:
get rid of bacterial overgrowth
other than oregano oil which is really strong and might irritate the gut, a round of antibiotics ?
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@lykos said in Copper deficiency,histamine intolerance, fatigue:
other than oregano oil which is really strong and might irritate the gut, a round of antibiotics ?
Maybe both but I won't give details now because you've got to do your homework ;).
Read the links I gave. You've got work for 2 days if you want to manage well / if you do not want to take the wrong road and exhaust the capacity of your body to recover. -
@LucH thanks for everything, gonna read it all.
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@LucH hey, although i know b1 is histamine liberator, i did some research and couldn't find any studies that prove that it increases histamine or blocks dao despite being mention in some of those websites you posted and my own experience, i did find a few studies that show the opposite that lower b1 status increases histamine in the brain and serotonin. how do we increase b1 for us with histamine issues, even b complex give me all issues because b1 in it.
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@lykos said in Copper deficiency,histamine intolerance, fatigue:
i did some research and couldn't find any studies that prove
I know.
I didn’t find back the link of the study. So, I’ve proceeded differently, with Luc’s pendulum
Question to ChatGPT
Context:
Study warning against certain molecules (herbal medicine or foods). The details are not available. I couldn't find this link. No problem with the AE (adequate intake) / RDA relative to thiamine (B1), i.e., 1.2 mg. Nor even with a B50 complex if taken twice a week.
I know that thiamine is essential as a vitamin and enzyme cofactor in several situations, particularly in the communication between the brain and gut axis (vagal nerve).
So no need to warn me.
• Enzymatic Pathways and Bioenergetics (HD Vitamins and Co-factors + Mitochondrial Support)
• Microbiome-Brain Coordination (Gut Health and Absorption + Neurotransmitter Synthesis)Question
What could be the reason for the prohibition / warning against taking a high dose of thiamine (> 100 mg B1) as a course for a treatment, at a pharmacological dosage, passive assimilation, with occasional B2 intake, therefore not necessarily daily? A high intake of B1 will "consume" B2.Extrapolation (track to be confirmed):
Prerequisite: Metabolism functions erratically, whether at the thyroid, digestive, and / or brain levels.
Knowing that a significant and gradual passive intake is likely to reactivate certain metabolic processes in the event of deficiency (CFR Chandler Marrs, Elliot Overton, Antonio Constantine's, legacy, Derrick Lonsdale), according to a progressive protocol, what could be the reason / explanation for an excitation of mast cells or other cells involved in the production or release of histamine, in the event of a high dosage? I am aware that this is a hypothesis, therefore it must be confirmed by another route. No need for a warning.Short answer
The most plausible explanation is that high doses of B1 abruptly increase the activity of mitochondrial enzyme complexes and decarboxylation pathways, creating:
• an increased demand for B2 and NADPH,
• a transient redox imbalance,
• increased production of metabolites and biogenic amines,
• and rapid modulation of the neuro-immune axis (vagus nerve–mast cells).
These combined factors can trigger or amplify mast cell degranulation/histamine release in certain conditions.Detailed explanation
As described by Derrick Lonsdale and Chandler Marrs: In cases of latent deficiency, a high dose can "awaken" dormant metabolic pathways.
This "awakening" results in a relocation of metabolic resources, with short-term disharmony, which can manifest as:- Mast cell activation,
- Thyroid fluctuations,
- Symptoms of histamine intolerance.
Immuno-neuroendocrine activation (brain-gut-immunity axis)
• The vagus nerve is heavily involved in mast cell regulation.
• While thiamine abruptly improves nerve conduction and vagal bioenergetics, there may be a transient activation of the anti-inflammatory cholinergic loop, paradoxically perceived as mast cell stimulation (abrupt rebalancing of sympathetic/parasympathetic tone).
In conclusion (LucH): We first try to calm the excessive reaction (histamine), with a moderate intake of B1, accompanied by cofactors to facilitate enzymatic conversion. When the situation is under control, we can gradually increase the pharmacological dosage (HD B1), following a protocol if we go beyond 100 mg of thiamine. We adapt according to the feeling, knowing that we will have to learn to decode a healing crisis (Herxheimer crisis) from a counterproductive / inappropriate intake.
Figure: Effet de la thiamine en cas de surdosage (> 100 mg) : Effets sur les mastocytes (hypothèse)
=> Effect of thiamine when overdosing (> 100 mg): Effects on mast cells (hypothesis).
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@LucH Interesting, i got a similar answer from chatgpt, i played around with different dosages from 25mg-100mg hcl supplemented along with b2 50mg and p5p 10mg. They all cause me the same issues.
