GABA powder
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@sunsunsun The paper could absolutely be wrong, or I could be misinterpreting it, but that was my impression, anyway.
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@sunsunsun said in GABA powder:
the lack of obvious BBB crossing apparently doesn't negate GABA effects , the basic reason I say that is that gut bacteria producing GABA have been measured to have distinct effect on whole organism
How is GABA powder useful for microbiota?
GABA → succinate → butyrate pathway: The Microbial Power Route.
How gut bacteria convert GABA through the shunt and succinate pathway to fuel and protect colonocytes of the linen walls.Many Bacteroides can use GABA as a carbon and nitrogen source for growth. Some other intestinal bacteria can use an alternative pathway, called the GABA shunt.
GABA is not a preferred primary carbon source for most gut bacteria as growth is usually stronger on sugars or amino acids like glutamate. But when the main fuel is rationed or when an access route is blocked, an alternate pathway is used. Survival, no longer growing and extending.
Butyrate is the star among SCFAs (with propionate) as it upregulates the tight junction proteins (occludin, claudin-1 and -4and ZO-1 (zonulin): Tight junction expression, anti-inflammatory signaling (via HDAC inhibition) and hypoxic barrier maintenance (via oxygen consumption in colonocytes). Butyrate literally energizes the gut barrier.
Even if butyrate is the primary fuel for colonocytes, allowing them to function optimally and maintain the physical barrier, you won’t have rich-butyrate food (butter) arrive at destination.
Food butyrate doesn’t substitute for microbially produced butyrate in the colon. You need help from the microbiota. Dietary butyrate has systemic anti-inflammatory benefits, may support mitochondrial function and is easy on digestion. But dietary butyrate won’t rebuild a damaged gut barrier the way endogenous microbial butyrate does.
Also, pamper your commensal bacteria with a varied supply of useful nutrients...
Butyrate is indirectly enhanced by resistant Starch (potato, rice, bread), Inulin (FOS from onions, garlic, asparagus, bananas, leeks), pectin (apple, citrus fruit, carrot), beta-glucan (oat, mushroom), GOS ((legumes, dairy), XOS (fruits, vegetables, whole grains) when the commensal bacteria feeds on these elements. + Yogurt & Kefir…
Note that the GABA shunt requires enzymatic reactions: GABA → Succinate = substrate for some bacteria that convert it into butyrate, a key SCFA. It serves as a signaling molecule that modulates immune and epithelial cell activity.
As you know probably, SCFAs—especially butyrate and propionate—upregulate junction proteins:
Occludin
Claudin-1 and -4
ZO-1 (zonulin)
Result:
✓ Reduced gut permeability
✓ Less endotoxin (LPS) crossing into the bloodstream
✓ Lower systemic inflammation
More info on this link:
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t2153-english-corner-how-is-gaba-powder-useful-for-microbiota#30480 -
@LucH said in GABA powder:
microbiota
Viral episodes since 2020 seem to have had a dramatic (and lingering) negative effect on the oral and digestive microbiome.
Although scientific studies seem to be largely contradictory, I would suggest that Lactic Acid producing bacteria have increased and GABA producing bacteria have decreased.
For me, this has resulted in apparent abdominal sensitivity to pain and swelling, and episodes of digestive motility blockage. 200-400mg/d GABA powder has a relaxing effect on the nerves and muscles involved in the tension/distension.
At the same time, I find that I have to limit Lactic Acid producing foods: fermented ingestibles: no Kimchi, Sauerkraut, Kefir, Buttermilk, Yogurt.
And no Lactobacillus Probiotics. -
@atlee said in GABA powder:
200-400mg/d GABA powder has a relaxing effect on the nerves and muscles involved in the tension/distension.
Yes, indeed but I won't take gaba powder, nor glycine when there is dysbiosis (overgrowth) or unbalance in the microbiota. Why?
let's take 2 strains; E. Coli and candida albicans. They can feed on derived molecules. Make a search with the gaba shunt if you want more details.
I've explained this pathway in details on my forum.
When suffering from overgrowth, the tactics isn't the same.
In summary: Weaken – kick and push out.
Coordinated and planned tactic, which results in a structured scheme:
Weaken (deprivation of resources but not complete abstinence)
Organize to knock out (limiting the ability to adapt)
Machin-gun (with increased die-off) + assistance to evacuate LPS endotoxins
Consolidation (nutrients useful to ensure diversification of commensal bacteria + enhancing peaceful communication through the vagal nerve between the brain and the stomach).
Occupy the place (diversified menus and possible contributions of specific strains depending on the terrain, e.g. if you suffer from allergies / histamine intolerance or not.In prevention, get informed on motility (MMC) if your transit is lazy.
Need 30 g fiber (progressive) from veggies and fruits, as a substrate.
To set things in order, before it's too late: Quercetin, iodine (with a protocol to open NIS symporters and avoid a Wolff-Chaikoff effect).
If in crisis, I'd proceed with essential oils. I did it last year with success, when my transit was rather lazy, with flatulencies and sulphur odors. Details are to be found in my log, on my forum (In French; translator needed). Under control. Have still to take care for histamine excess. I manage rather well, though this last point is not ideal. -
Great summary and suggestions. I spent a lot of my RPF years in this neighborhood, and I am very much aligned with your views.
I would add to my post that I have had good success with taking half of my 200-400mg/d GABA powder sublingually. It seems to have very significant sublingual uptake, perhaps by avoiding the gut microbiome. -
So my own experience is that it works and definitely reaches the brain. It will probably help if you are suffering from depression and/or recovering from taking SRIs like Haidut suggested in one interview but it won't have any "general" health effect, it's not some nutrient you would be deficient in. It just makes you very relaxed after a few hours.
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@pittybitty >no general health effect
he doesn't know
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@sunsunsun ???
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@pittybitty there's probably dozens of studies showing it is probably beneficial for overall general health
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@sunsunsun High GABA means serotonin is low, it's probably that.
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@pittybitty you're one of those people who can't bring themselves to concede a point aren't you?
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@pittybitty I was reflecting on the significance of whether oral GABA penetrates the CNS or not and I'm not sure
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even if it can if it can substantially and persistently elevate GABA-ergic signaling directly in the CNS
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if it can't why that would be any significant evidence that it could not nevertheless produce a state of calm that indirectly influences the whole organism and hence the CNS
To give an analogy, consider massage. I (and many others) find massage to be very relaxing. Does massage "directly and persistently elevate GABA-ergic signaling in the mammalian CNS". Well, no. Obviously not.
Does that mean it can't produce calmness that does indirectly influence the brain and spinal cord? No. It obviously does.
The heart and digestive system both have GABA receptors, so even if oral GABA is not CNS-penetrant, who cares? If the heart and gut have enhanced inhibitory tone as a consequence of the oral GABA, surely the brain will register that and be more at ease, and that's not even factoring in the influence of the gut on the CNS via the vagus nerve.
In summary, I'm not sure if the "CNS-penetration or bust" paradigm even makes sense for the same reason that massage clearly has CNS effects without those effects being "direct".
In time there is life but no knowledge; outside time there is knowledge but no life
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@jamezb46 le "it can't cross the BBB therefore can't work" is the same level of midwittery as Redditors still going on about how collagen peptides are a scam because "the peptides get digested into single aminos anyways" despite there being studies with radio labelling proving some get absorbed as peptides not single aminos
these same pieces of garbage who advocate for depersoning people based on decisions not to take the wuflu jabs and who engage in their own approved racist speech against certain people who it is societally acceptable to be racist to while downvoting and banning anyone who Is racist against George Floyd, who also celebrate murder when it is against people they dont like and committed by an attractive male, will also freely admit that mood can be dictated by gut derived serotonin (ofc they still call it the "happy" hormone or whatever) yet they will at the same time say stuff like gaba not crossing the BBB in big amounts is proof it doesn't really work
these people are actually ontologically evil and there are farm animals deserving of more respect than them, not to say anything bad about farm animals.
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@jamezb46 said in GABA powder:
The heart and digestive system both have GABA receptors, so even if oral GABA is not CNS-penetrant, who cares?
I'd like to try to put the ball back in the center.
The question is not to know/ confirm that GABA powder can or not cross the BBB, nor whether there are GABA receptors in the gastrointestinal tract and in the muscles (cardiomyocytes and the cardiac conduction system). Yes, there are some.
The main question here is that there is interaction between the microbiome and the vagus nerve. We know butyrate is a substitute for several strains.
Butyrate is the star among SCFAs (with propionate) as it upregulates the tight junction proteins (occludin, claudin-1 and -4and ZO-1 (zonulin): Tight junction expression, anti-inflammatory signaling (via HDAC inhibition) and hypoxic barrier maintenance (via oxygen consumption in colonocytes). Butyrate literally energizes the gut barrier.
So if we accept that the GABA shunt is a pathway for enhancing a well-balanced microbiota, no need to know / confirm that GABA powder can or cannot cross the BBB.
GABA → Succinate = substrate for some bacteria that convert it into butyrate, a key SCFA.
But we should know how and when to use GABA powder.
More info:
How is GABA powder useful for microbiota?
GABA → succinate → butyrate pathway: The Microbial Power Route.
How gut bacteria convert GABA through the shunt and succinate pathway to fuel and protect colonocytes of the linen walls
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t2153-english-corner-how-is-gaba-powder-useful-for-microbiota#30480
