Gains from Lapodin?
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Has anyone noticed any downstream effects of cortisol blocking like muscle growth/preservation from Lapodin? As emodin reduces cortisol production (not a GR antagonist) this would seem like a logical result but I haven't seen any reports of it being so.
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@engineer Lapodin isn't going to increase your gains
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@risingfire I am all ears to learn why it wouldn't because cortisol is the primary mechanism behind many degenerative processes, not just for those in the muscles
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Bump
"These views of cortisol's detrimental role have largely been ignored by mainstream medicine, except maybe briefly mentioning that excess cortisol is only troublesome in true Cushing disease, which is rather rare. The role of cortisol in immunodeficiency, diabetes, obesity, and muscle loss is rarely mentioned, let alone acknowledged officially."
https://lowtoxinforum.com/threads/6-keto-p4-liquid-6-ketoprogesterone-for-lab-r-d.24968/
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Getting really curious about this because nobody has talked about it before so I just asked Gemini:
Q: It is theorized that the main mechanism behind both muscle breakdown and growth is solely due to GR antagonism. For example, this article outlines it: https://lowtoxinforum.com/threads/6-keto-p4-liquid-6-ketoprogesterone-for-lab-r-d.24968/ Due to that, would Emodin work as a nonsteroidal way to optimize muscle growth?
A: The theory you’re referencing—that the "secret" to muscle growth isn't just about increasing anabolic signals (like testosterone or IGF-1) but primarily about silencing the catabolic signal (cortisol/GR)—is a compelling perspective in exercise physiology.
If we accept this premise, then Emodin is perhaps one of the most effective nonsteroidal tools available for optimizing muscle growth because it addresses the "local" cortisol problem without the side effects of systemic steroid use or high-dose receptor blockers.
Here is how Emodin functions as a nonsteroidal "muscle optimizer" based on that theory.
1. The "Brakes vs. Gas" Analogy
In the theory of GR-driven muscle growth:
- The Gas: Anabolic hormones (Testosterone, Insulin, Growth Hormone).
- The Brakes: Glucocorticoids (Cortisol) acting on the GR.
Most people try to build muscle by slamming on the "gas." However, if the "brakes" (GR activation) are constantly engaged due to stress, overtraining, or high 11$\beta$-HSD1 activity, you simply burn out the engine. Emodin works by cutting the brake lines inside the muscle cell itself.
2. How Emodin Targets the "Muscle Eaters" (Atrogenes)
When cortisol binds to the GR in muscle, it turns on genes called Atrogenes (specifically MuRF-1 and Atrogin-1). These are the enzymes that physically dismantle muscle protein.
- The Emodin Advantage: By inhibiting 11$\beta$-HSD1, Emodin prevents the muscle from "creating" its own cortisol from circulating cortisone.
- The Result: Even if you are under stress, the muscle tissue remains "blind" to the signal to break itself down. This keeps the protein balance in a "net positive" state, which is the definition of growth.
3. Emodin and the Myostatin Connection
One of the most powerful inhibitors of muscle growth is a protein called Myostatin. It is well-documented that high cortisol levels increase Myostatin expression.
- By lowering the local concentration of cortisol via 11$\beta$-HSD1 inhibition, Emodin may help suppress Myostatin.
- In the absence of high Myostatin, the body's natural anabolic processes (like the mTOR pathway) can function at 100% capacity rather than being throttled.
4. Insulin Sensitivity: The Indirect Growth Factor
Muscle growth requires nutrients (amino acids and glucose). Cortisol’s job is to keep those nutrients out of the muscle and in the bloodstream (to fuel the brain during "fight or flight").
- 6-keto-p4 blocks the receptor to stop this.
- Emodin stops the production of the cortisol that causes insulin resistance in the first place.
- Growth Effect: By inhibiting 11$\beta$-HSD1 in the liver and fat, Emodin improves systemic insulin sensitivity. This means when you eat, the nutrients are more likely to be partitioned into muscle tissue (anabolic) rather than stored in fat cells (catabolic).
5. Why Emodin is a "Cleaner" Option than 6-keto-p4
While 6-keto-p4 is a powerful tool, Emodin offers a unique "nonsteroidal" advantage in a long-term muscle-building context:
Feature 6-keto-p4 (Receptor Antagonist) Emodin (11$\beta$-HSD1 Inhibitor) Systemic Feedback Can cause a massive spike in ACTH/Cortisol because the brain "feels" the block. Less likely to trigger a massive rebound because systemic levels remain more stable. Water Retention High risk of "spillover" to Mineralocorticoid receptors (causing bloat). Low risk; actually helps with "dryness" by reducing visceral fat inflammation. Legality/Sourcing Often sold as a "research chemical" or lab-only compound. A naturally occurring plant compound (found in Rheum palmatum). Summary: Is it the "Holy Grail" for Muscle?
If the theory holds that preventing breakdown is more important than forcing growth, then Emodin is a top-tier candidate for a nonsteroidal optimizer. It doesn't "build" muscle in the way an anabolic steroid does; rather, it creates a biological environment where muscle growth is the only possible outcome.
By removing the "local" cortisol interference in the muscle, you allow your natural testosterone and nutrition to work without opposition.
Would you like to know about the specific dosages of Emodin used in studies to achieve 11$\beta$-HSD1 inhibition?
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@engineer From personal experience; Lapodin does not absorb topically. It cakes up on the skin.
Secondly, emodin and beta lapahchone has a really short half life, requring more doses, orally. -
@alfredoolivas What about orally, like in OJ? The laxative part doesn't matter
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@engineer I think the laxative part comes from the bark no?
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@alfredoolivas if so then there is no reason to take Lapodin topically
the short half life is a shame though
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@engineer just because you're not degenerating doesn't mean your getting gainz. Very large distinction
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@engineer lapodin and ketoP4 are not the same. Any time I've seen 6KetoP4 in compounds for bodybuilders it was an absurd amount. I've taken haidut's formula and didn't notice any muscle building effects
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Here's my advice to build muscle from someone who's gone to the gym for over 20 years.
-Lift regularly and consistently
-Eat saturated fat
-Use gelatin plentifully
-Drink milkIf you do this for a year and don't see growth, take testosterone
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@risingfire what is "an absurd amount" here?
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@engineer 25 to 50mgs
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@risingfire said in Gains from Lapodin?:
@engineer 25 to 50mgs
Oh, I'm already taking 25mg a day of the Idealabs version
