vitamin K2 MK7 instead of MK4 for ulcers from aspirin, does it really matter that much

LucH

@hwisdom said in vitamin K2 MK7 instead of MK4 for ulcers from aspirin, does it really matter that much:

I tried my aspirin protocol without vit K2, actually felt great and didnt get any headaches nor nose bleeds nor any of that zero negatives, its just that Ive been seeing dark spots in my stool which is indicative of bleeding up the upper tract where my gut ends up digesting the leaking blood, my stomach did also kinda feel like it wasn't acidic enough.

Hi,
Listen to your symptoms.
What I would do, in this order:

Stop for a while aspirin.
Need some L-glutamine 1/4 tsp 2x/d but not without taurine to avoid problems with the glutamate pathway. You need glutamine when suffering from leaky gut and the thickness of mucin (stomach coat). You probably lack B6 too (20-25 mg), when there are stress and inflammation. Easier to reach the the brain too with B6 (stress).
You need K1 from veggies
I take MK4 too. 1 mg ( 1000 mcg) with breakfast when there enough fat (25 - 33 g optimal). Not cheap but it lasts one year minimum (Thorn Research). no need to take more than 2 mg (2 000 mcg). I can give a link from studies to explain why.
NB: I would delegate to someone I trust if you're unsure what to think. Otherwise, you'll secrete cortisol and disrupt the recovery staple.
=> Need bisglycinate Mg, L-theanine to calm down. Or you try EFT or sophrology technic.
Once a week I take a mix with K1 K2 MK4 and MK7. Cheap. life Extension super K. High level K1. So not every day.
I'd take white willow bark extract (15 % salicin titrated) instead of aspirin. I can give a link on my forum (in French) if interested about details (why). Swanson 500 mg. 3 weeks cure, 12-15 days stop (to renew platelets).
Aspirin surppresses the making of new platelets. You need platelet for blood aggregation.

alfredoolivas

@LucH share the link to french forum plz

hwisdom

@LucH thank you for ur contribution man I did already stop taking aspirin, and I would love to read more about why using willow park extract is better, I already have a couple of good ideas as to why is it maybe because the amount of aspirin converted from salicin is only dependant on what ur liver can handle + its not irritating on stomach?

LucH

@alfredoolivas and @hwisdom
Why you should give a try with WWB.
We’re not talking about a crisis drug stuff. Since ASA (acid acetyl-salicylic) has an impact on platelet aggregation (for sure) and a possible by-side effect on mucin (epithelial protection of the linen intestinal walls) (aggressive and disruptive), we should learn how to manage to minimize the contraindications’ from these molecules.
I’ll give the direction where we should look at, not in details now.
There is an impact of ASA on platelets, and thus blood fluidity. Possible interaction with liposoluble vitamins?

Useful links on ASA & WWB

*) Impact of HD aspirin on platelet aggregation curve
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t2143-english-corner-impact-of-hd-aspirin-on-platelet-aggregation-curve?highlight=platelet

*) English corner: Aspirin cuts the spark; vitamin K keeps the current steady.
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t2144-english-corner-aspirin-cuts-the-spark-vitamin-k-keeps-the-current-steady#30424
Prevention for SARS-cov-2.

Vitamin K does not trigger clotting, it only ensures that the clotting and anti-clotting systems work effectively. Vitamin K is an essential cofactor for the activation of several proteins.
How MK-4 aids in redox recovery
Does aspirin counteract GLA protein or osteocalcin?
HD Aspirin take permanently inhibits existing platelets; recovery depends on new platelet formation (≈ 10 days). Whatever the dosage is (81, 325 or > 500-1000 mg ASA).
Vit K enhances balance: Vit K is an essential cofactor for the activation of several proteins.

*) Aspirin & Salicin from White Willow Bark – A Natural Path to Mitochondrial Vitality?
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t2128-english-corner-aspirin-salicin-from-white-willow-bark-a-natural-path-to-mitochondrial-vitality

NB: I'll begin with this new post:
Salicin and WWB Talk with Gemini 3
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t2163-salicin-from-wwb-vs-aspirin#30570
Context
Once salicin from WWB is converted (via hydrolysis and oxidation) into salicylic acid, it can interact with cellular energy systems in a few notable ways; often on a more mildly way.

Uncoupling of Oxidative Phosphorylation (Mild effect and Adaptive).
Inhibition of Mitochondrial Stress Signaling (NF-κB, TNF-α).
Protection against Lipid Peroxidation.
Stimulation of Pyruvate Utilization (no direct data, mildly apply) DOI:10.1136/jcp.54.7.553
Downregulation of iNOS and NO Overload (it supports mitochondrial longevity and cleaner respiration).

Excerpt
Salicin is hydrolyzed into saligenin (salicyl alcohol) and d-glucose in the intestines, primarily by gut bacteria (or enzymes). Saligenin is then absorbed into the blood and transported to the liver, where it is oxidized to form salicylic acid, the active compound with anti-inflammatory and pain-relieving properties.
https://www.stanfordchem.com/salicin-vs-salicylic-acid-relationship-difference-uses.html

hwisdom

@LucH thank you very cool very nice very awesome

hwisdom

@LucH but yea my actual question was about the efficasy of mk7 and if its good enough to activate the clotting factors that are shut down by aspirin

hwisdom

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34115006/ nvm wow it actually doesnt this is crazy is mk7 that fucking useless? it doesnt even affect bones or hormones damn bru

alfredoolivas

@hwisdom 90 micrograms is really low dose

sunsunsun

This post is deleted!

engineer

@alfredoolivas why do normie supplements always have these tiny k2 doses? Even Kuinone is 2000ug per drop

hwisdom

@alfredoolivas good point but mk7 apparently is like more active or smth??

LucH

@hwisdom said in vitamin K2 MK7 instead of MK4 for ulcers from aspirin, does it really matter that much:

my actual question was about the efficasy of mk7 and if its good enough to activate the clotting factors that are shut down by aspirin

Vitamin K and Clotting
Vitamin K could perhaps be considered as a facilitator
High levels of vitamin K ensure that the circulation system can function effectively, as K activates anti-coagulation proteins. Vitamin K does not trigger clotting, it only ensures that the clotting and anti-clotting systems work effectively.
Both of these systems depend on sufficient amounts of vitamin K being available. Vitamin K does not initiate the formation of a blood clot, nor does it resolve or dissolve a clot. However, vitamin K does improve the functioning of both these systems. The key role of vitamin K is to make sure these systems work effectively.
The risk of unnecessary clots is increased when there are low amounts of vitamin K. A right amount Vitamin K is required to enhance balance between clotting and clotting factors (aka a balance between pro-coagulant (clot-forming) and anticoagulant (clot-inhibiting). A deficiency leads to a shortage of these factors, resulting in an increased risk of bleeding and bruising from minor injuries.
Source: https://www.k-vitamins.com/index.php?page=research-view-all&id=16

alfredoolivas

@engineer @hwisdom <200mcg is the average intake of vitamin K2, that's why they are dosed so low.

MK7 is a precursor to MK4, and produces much more stable levels compared to an equivelent dose of MK4. Though the other MKs including 4 are much more active than MK 7. Though MK7 does have some binding affinity to the PXR receptor ("vitamin K receptor"), MK4 has much higher binding affinity

LucH

@alfredoolivas said in vitamin K2 MK7 instead of MK4 for ulcers from aspirin, does it really matter that much:

MK7 is a precursor to MK4, and produces much more stable levels compared to an equivelent dose of MK4.

I suppose we aren't speaking about the shelve life of liquid forms, once the bottle is opened.
Stable?
MK7 has a longer tail and can move faster / easier.
=> I suppose you mean MK7 half-life is longer in the body.

MK 7 (or any blend with PUFAs) is much more susceptible to oxidation (related to double bonds). This is why its shelf life after opening is shorter (~3 months).

Useful info for other readers. Only if you can easily summarize, know your target (brain / bone / vessels). Otherwise, you'll get lost.

Stability of K2 MK4(shelve life) + How I manage (many interesting links). The post is in French (translator required) but most of the links re in English.
Chris Masterjohn about vitamin K: see the graph.
Vit MK4 Vs MK7 Masterjohn
They have different effects because of their chemical structure differences and thus the way they are “packaged” into chylomicrons in the intestine. Have you read https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/blog/2016/12/09/the-ultimate-vitamin-k2-resource/? When vitamin K gets “packaged” up in a chylomicron, mk4 is on the outer edges of the chylomicron and mk7 is in the center.

hwisdom

@alfredoolivas do you think it happens at sufficient levels where mk7 doesnt cause problems? Im tryna take 4g of aspirin per day rn

alfredoolivas

@hwisdom Aspirin thins the blood by inhibiting COX enzymes and Vitamin K thickens the blood by increasing clotting factors, dependent on vitamin K.
Aspirin affects platelet function. Vitamin K affects coagulation protein activation. So I don't think they would counteract eachother. Though 4 grams a day isn't that risky (on it's own). Just make sure to not get into any traumatic accidents, because the bleeding greatly increases risk of hemmorhage, potentialy leaving you brain dead.
So walk & drive safe (to not end up like Michael Schumacher), be careful lifting weights and be careful skiing/snowboarding in sweden. No fighting too

hwisdom

@alfredoolivas like Ik all of this but im just asking, I have a bag of mk7 that I dont wanna use bcus of its negative effects compared to k1 and mk4, im gonna be needing to take a massive amount of mk7 and more than 150mcg ish has been shown in some cases to be problematic and if Im gonna be taking 4g of aspirin my needs of vit K will go up to the point where this small dose aint enough, but Im just not sure about this whole mk7 thing atp so this is why im asking