Pro Metabolic Substances Tier List
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@alfredoolivas What t4 dose? I stopped taking ~4:1 T4:T3 because it doesnt align with reality. The thyroid endogenously outputs 16:1 - 20:1 T4:T3 and taking exogenous thyroid at those ratios feels massively better than spamming t3. I've been taking 150mcg t4 and 8mcg t3, wondering how you came to a similar conclusion.
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@lobotomize Ray said to take 1 nanogram of t3 every second
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@ethan 100mcg of T4, the liver produces 80% of T3 though
@lettheredeemed thats what T4 does lol. It’s like a drip of T3, and actually allows you to receive it every second in sub nano gram amounts. That’s what my passive aggressive comment to @lobotomize me was for lol -
@alfredoolivas is that enough t4 for your height and weight? is your TSH suppressed from this amount of t4? endogenously there is always some t3 being produced from the gland, so low dose probably isnt that harmful/catabolic
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@alfredoolivas lol yup. I do think I encountered more problems than I helped when I got on NDT a few years ago. after ketocarnivore (and a whole childhood of malnutrition and sugar avoidance), I think my liver was just shot and I needed direct t3. It’s just a super case by case basis, but I believe the avg person probably does fine on primarily t4 at lunch and dinner.
The one I’m really sour about is how they extracted calcitonin from NDT meds because they can prescribe that for it’s own cool properties. Long term when I’m rich I just want to take a high quality bovine blend NDT. Found a cool one for like 60+ bucks.
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@LetTheRedeemed lgs has a not-standardized one
I started my dog on it because she was on the low end of the t4 range and within 2 weeks she grew a mohawk of more fur from her head to her tail. or maybe it was the same fur but it just stood up nowhaven't measured her thyroid since tho so idk if its from that but it probably is I dont think I changed much else other than add low dose dhea
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Putting both Alcohol and Semaglutide in your S Tier is insane, especially when one of your own qualifications for that tier is "no drawbacks."
Both already have major established drawbacks, both from acute and chronic use. In addition to the potential problems that have already been established with Semaglutide, the drug hasn't even been on the market 10 years yet, meaning there could be other major issues that haven't even been discovered yet.
Beyond those issues, Alcohol isn't "pro metabolic." In itself, it is a toxin, and it produces an even more toxic substance (Acetaldehyde) when it is being processed to Acetyl CoA. It's highly reductive, helping to build up NADH. This directly opposes the actions of some of the other substances on your list, like Methylene Blue.
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@ZackVegas low doses of alcohol increases ATP production. There were zero drawbacks in MY Experience.
If this list was written on pure theory, then the whole list would be upside down.
But a few drinks and semaglutide I had no detrimental effects on me. So they are S tier. At least they were in March 2025
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@alfredoolivas Dinkov talked about how a few alcoholic drinks a day with food match optimal ethanol production by the body, and ethanol is one of the 2 or 3 substances that removes lipofuscin. Yes, all things with consideration and exception, use accordingly.
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@alfredoolivas what's a low dose
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@ZackVegas is methylene blue a perfect addition to an alcoholic mixed drink>?
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@ZackVegas low doses of alcohol increases ATP production.
This is false. Alcohol, in any amount, requires ATP to be metabolized. For every molecule of Acetyl CoA produced from Ethanol, one ATP is consumed. Beta Oxidation neither consumes nor produces ATP, while Glycolysis produces one net ATP for every molecule of Acetyl CoA produced. While small amounts of alcohol probably wouldn't have a serious effect on ATP for most people, it still doesn't increase it.
There were zero drawbacks in MY Experience.
So, your experience doesn't include basic research about substances you experiment with?
If this list was written on pure theory, then the whole list would be upside down.
I didn't mention any "theory," it's well documented and proven, both in studies and anecdotally thousands of times over, that both alcohol and semaglutide have drawbacks, sometimes incredibly serious ones. While they might still be used beneficially even with these potential drawbacks, pretending those issues don't exist is silly.
But a few drinks and semaglutide I had no detrimental effects on me. So they are S tier. At least they were in March 2025
Well, no NOTICEABLE detrimental effects.
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This is false. Alcohol, in any amount, requires ATP to be metabolized. For every molecule of Acetyl CoA produced from Ethanol, one ATP is consumed. Beta Oxidation neither consumes nor produces ATP, while Glycolysis produces one net ATP for every molecule of Acetyl CoA produced. While small amounts of alcohol probably wouldn't have a serious effect on ATP for most people, it still doesn't increase it.
Lol.
I think your obsessed with as single biochemical mechanism of a substance and ignoring the end result of it.
So, your experience doesn't include basic research about substances you experiment with?
Yeah. I am not gonna include research of 59 different substances for a tierlist of my experiences.
But because you care so much about 4 shots of vodka a day:
https://www.reddit.com/r/raypeat/comments/1hrc3pf/low_high_alcohol_consumption_in_mice_ameliorates/
https://www.reddit.com/user/learnedhelplessness_/comments/1ijvpw3/the_prothyroid_effects_of_ethanol_lowered_tsh/ -
@ZackVegas said:
I didn't mention any "theory,"You did.
@ZackVegas said:
Semaglutide, the drug hasn't even been on the market 10 years yet, meaning there could be other major issues that haven't even been discovered yet.You suggested for me to take in account the theoretical effects of a drug, just because they were new.
You run off pure theory.
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Lol.
I think your obsessed with as single biochemical mechanism of a substance and ignoring the end result of it.
No, I was simply responding to your false statement. By the way, a single study does not invalidate that. Wasn't that study from mice or rats on a high fat diet? Where was the control when they were on their regular , higher carb diet?
You should also know that studies can show paradoxically different effects in short and long terms forms. Maybe ATP production is increased over a few weeks, but decreased over a period of months or years.
Yeah. I am not gonna include research of 59 different substances for a tierlist of my experiences.
I didn't ask you to include any studies, but it would be wise to at least consider the very widely known effects of these substances.
But because you care so much about 4 shots of vodka a day:
https://www.reddit.com/r/raypeat/comments/1hrc3pf/low_high_alcohol_consumption_in_mice_ameliorates/
https://www.reddit.com/user/learnedhelplessness_/comments/1ijvpw3/the_prothyroid_effects_of_ethanol_lowered_tsh/Again, there can be insane differences in short term studies (like the last one measured in hours) and long terms results (those that happen over months or years). Before discovering Ray Peat's work, I drank alcohol regularly for probably 15 years, probably averaging the daily amount of 4 shots of vodka a day. It was NOT pro thyroid, nor did it induce a "hypermetabolic" state in any long term sense. Maybe for a few hours, but your metabolic rate is depressed for more hours/days on the backend, and any short term benefit quickly dissapears.
You then have to deal with the long term affects of lowered ATP, a more reduced (rather than oxidized) state, and depletion of certain B vitamins, along with other effects, along with the other well known problems of consuming alcohol. And if your alcohol metabolism isn't working well, you may get regular states of high acetaldehyde, a much more toxic substance than alcohol. Many think this is the main cause of wicked hangovers.
You seem very young, so go ahead, enjoy your 4 shots a day responsibly in your 20s, I'm guessing you'll start to see some negative effects after a few years, probably your mid 30s.
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You suggested for me to take in account the theoretical effects of a drug, just because they were new.
You run off pure theory.
No, I suggested you include the PROVEN EXPERIENCE of millions of others. This is not "theory," this is wisdom. Your experience in this life is very short, I'm guessing about 25 years or so. If you multiply that by the hundreds of thousands of GLP1 users, or billions of drinkers, you now can draw from millions/billions of years of experience, rather than just your own comparatively short life.
Hell, even the makers of Alcohol and Semaglutide will warn you about their potential issues. And they don't make those warnings out of theory, they make them based on real world events.
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You should also know that studies can show paradoxically different effects in short and long terms forms. Maybe ATP production is increased over a few weeks, but decreased over a period of months or years.
This was perfomed 12 weeks on the low ethanol diet and they lived 9 weeks longer (160w) than the control group (151w) So that argument is wrong.
Maybe for a few hours, but your metabolic rate is depressed for more hours/days on the backend, and any short term benefit quickly dissapears.
Really, how was this depression of metabolism measured? Oh wait, you are sharing your subjective experiences just like me.
No, I suggested you include the PROVEN EXPERIENCE of millions of others. This is not "theory," this is wisdom. Your experience in this life is very short, I'm guessing about 25 years or so. If you multiply that by the hundreds of thousands of GLP1 users, or billions of drinkers, you now can draw from millions/billions of years of experience, rather than just your own comparatively short life.
Hell, even the makers of Alcohol and Semaglutide will warn you about their potential issues. And they don't make those warnings out of theory, they make them based on real world events.
It's a good idea, but sharing my experience of substances is okay too. No need to chimp out.
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There were zero drawbacks in MY Experience.
So, your experience doesn't include basic research about substances you experiment with?
I’m always sadly surprised when people are having a good ole disagreement on something (which I love) and they’ll throw in something that challenges the integrity/intelligence/intention of the opponent and spoils the emotion and constitution of the argument.
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