Backcountry Eating
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The nature of my job (and my hobbies) opens me up to the opportunity of venturing into the backcountry so I thought I'd start logging recipes as I go, hitch by hitch. I've always found it hard to eat "clean" while backpacking since most dehydrated meals include ingredients that are not very in-line with bioenergetic living. That's why I aim to make this thread a recipe log, where I experiment with different recipes and more or less rate their effectiveness as backpacking foods.
This first post I won't include a true recipe, but I will speak on the efficacy of milk powder. It's truly THE backcountry staple, at least to me, in terms of how useful it can be and how common and cheap it is. Of course it serves as a great creamer for camp coffee but also a great filler ingredient in many other recipes. I've actually made milk powder pancakes (classic!) while in the backcountry by very carefully carrying eggs in my pack, and they turned out great. Now I was missing a few ingredients just because they'd be strange to pack in but the next time I go out I might just make the batter first. Maybe I'll freeze it the night before I head out and just carry it frozen until it thaws? I've done it with other things, but food safety is always a major hurdle while eating in the backcountry. Anyways, I do plan to test out a ton of milk powder heavy recipes, and I welcome any recipes or ideas anyone might have. -
@SilvertipConch I am deeply interested in this topic, please continue with this thread. Things I can recommend for multiday hiking are home-made gelatine gummies (3 table spoons of sugar, 1 table spoon of gelatine (I personally use bloom 270), 1/3 of dessert spoon of salt). If not possible or on short notice, haribo gummies are good substitution.
Either way, simple sugars are paramount for a multiday hike. The ususal obsession with complex cyrbohydrates and high-protein foods in case of hiking is detrimental to your health and your overall enjoyment of the trip. Nuts and fiber rich foods like oatmeals are unhealthy on their own, in case of trekking the negative effects are amplified (especially if you are in higher altitude which increases your endogenous co2).
Milk powder sounds great, just keep in mind that without proper sugar intake you will slow your metabolism and put pressure on your thyroid. Also, it is high in tryptophan and methionine, thus it is important to not forget to consume enough gelatine/collagen to counter it.
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@zeitgeist idk how you can call oatmeal "unhealthy". it's one of the most inoffensive foods. could just as easily say milk powder is 'unhealthy' because it is found to have endotoxins from the drying process.
In my opinion the best backcountry meal would be a chef flying in on a helicopter to meet you and prepare you a full meal with starch and meat and veg and some fruit and rice pudding for dessert. and making you breakfast and packing you sandwiches to take for lunch. and milking a mountain goat for snack in between.
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@SilvertipConch Ghee is a good fat to bring for frying the pancakes since it doesn't need a cooler. Asked about stocking food, Ray Peat said "Ordinary granulated white sugar, ghee, and coconut oil are intense calorie sources that are good for a medium-term shutdown." For the milk powder, he said "The taste gradually deteriorates if it's exposed to oxygen, but if it's well sealed, I've had some five-year-old powdered milk." Splitting a big bag into small sealed bags, one per hitch, keeps the rest fresh.
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@sunsunsun I can and I will. They are greatly overrated, misunderstood and from a bioenergetic standpoint unneccessarily problematic.
First of all, they include beta-glucans - your body cannot digest them, they will ferment, increase the amount of bacteria and endotoxin.
Secondly, they are rich in phytic acid (antinutrient) - this depletes your magnesium, calcium, sodium - when you are on a hike, that is an even greater problem.
Thirdly, in the mainstream they are celebrated for lowering cholesterol - that is detrimental as well, since cholesterol is a precursor for pregnanelon, progesteron and DHEA - all considered the hormones of vitality and youth in the words of Ray.
They are also quite high in pufa compared to other starchy foods, eating 100 grams of them has around 3 grams of pufas (you want to eat under 4 grams daily). If they were otherwise a great, nutritionally rich food (like in the case of egg yolks), the benefits would outweigh the fat content. But considering all the other negative factors at hand, I do not recomment eating them under any circumstances (apart form genuine mass starvation).
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@sunsunsun I can and I will. They are greatly overrated, misunderstood and from a bioenergetic standpoint unneccessarily problematic.
First of all, they include beta-glucans - your body cannot digest them, they will ferment, increase the amount of bacteria and endotoxin.
Secondly, they are rich in phytic acid (antinutrient) - this depletes your magnesium, calcium, sodium - when you are on a hike, that is an even greater problem.
Thirdly, in the mainstream they are celebrated for lowering cholesterol - that is detrimental as well, since cholesterol is a precursor for pregnanelon, progesteron and DHEA - all considered the hormones of vitality and youth in the words of Ray.
They are also quite high in pufa compared to other starchy foods, eating 100 grams of them has around 3 grams of pufas (you want to eat under 4 grams daily). If they were otherwise a great, nutritionally rich food (like in the case of egg yolks), the benefits would outweigh the fat content. But considering all the other negative factors at hand, I do not recomment eating them under any circumstances (apart form genuine mass starvation).
+100
Oats are my nemesis
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They are greatly overrated, misunderstood and from a bioenergetic standpoint unneccessarily problematic.
First of all, they include beta-glucans - your body cannot digest them, they will ferment, increase the amount of bacteria and endotoxin.
Secondly, they are rich in phytic acid (antinutrient) - this depletes your magnesium, calcium, sodium - when you are on a hike, that is an even greater problem.
Thirdly, in the mainstream they are celebrated for lowering cholesterol - that is detrimental as well, since cholesterol is a precursor for pregnanelon, progesteron and DHEA - all considered the hormones of vitality and youth in the words of Ray.
They are also quite high in pufa
This is a very short-sighted and undifferentiated stance to take.
1: Other chronic impediments excluded, not much gives one nicer poops than oats. The beta-glucans stimulate peristalsis and mucosal immunity. Transit time and therefore the potential to ferment will be optimized by oats in the diet. Mind you, this is if the basics of everything else are working and after an initial transition time of 1-2 weeks if one's been very low on fiber before.2: Phytic acid. Yes, but not as damning as you paint it if properly approached. Oats need soaking over night or up to a day and then they are much more nutritious. IMO unprepared rolled oats and musli are quite the garbage food and very heavy on digestion. Pre-soaked oats, thereagainst, are great.
2b: Phosporous. Yes. Sadly so. IMO regular morning oats require a gram or so of raw calcium citrate or calcium gluconate blended in to balance that. Soaking and cooking one's oats in a soapstone pot also notably (but not sufficiently) improves their mineral balance.
3: Lowering (increased!) cholesterol: Well actually it's rather increasing bile flow and clearance which is generally touted as a good thing for health. Increasing the flux, keeping a good turnaround of bile, fats and hormonal metabolites (yes also those pesky degradation products of estradiol). Eating oats doesn't turn anyone cholesterol-deficient.
4: PUFA. Yes. That and the high carbohydrate load is why one adds a hefty spoonful of butter, ghee or coconut fat to one's morning oats. As is well known in Peat-sphere, the ratio of PUFA:SFA is most crucial beyond the actual total amount of PUFA. 200g of oats a day yielding 6g of PUFA may not be your target but is well low.
- depending on the strain, there can be huge differences in protein content generally ranging from 8-13g/100g. The lower end is sadly the widely grown and distributed standard. The upper end provides notably much more sustenance. IMO 8g/100g protein oats are garbage and not worth the hassle unless one improves that with the addition of other protein.
Bottom line: Oats are of great if
a) with a high-protein content (or protein-enhanced),
b) pre-soaked,
c) with a gram of calcium powder
d) and a spoonful of butter/coconut fat. -
@CrumblingCookie The first two paragraphs are from the Ray Peat Wiki, the rest is my rebuttal to your other arguments.
Phytic acid counter: “Soaking oats overnight -- the trendy "overnight oats" preparation -- is sometimes claimed to reduce phytic acid through enzymatic breakdown. But the reduction is partial at best, and the overnight soak introduces a separate problem: raw or minimally processed grain sitting at room temperature becomes a medium for bacterial growth. The uncooked starch granules that survive this preparation are among the least digestible forms of starch, available to feed bacteria in the lower intestine and generate endotoxin and intestinal gas.”
bile excretion: “The beta-glucan fiber in oats accomplishes its cholesterol-lowering effect by binding bile acids in the intestine and preventing their reabsorption, forcing the liver to pull cholesterol from the bloodstream to synthesize replacement bile. This is the same mechanism Peat acknowledged when he mentioned "well-cooked oat bran" as one of several fiber options that can assist bile excretion in a KMUD episode on inflammation. The distinction is critical: Peat recognized that binding and excreting bile can be useful for removing endotoxin and estrogen metabolites that are excreted through bile, but this is a targeted therapeutic use of fiber, not an endorsement of oatmeal as a daily breakfast food. The difference between using oat bran as a bile-binding tool and eating a bowl of oatmeal every morning is the difference between a specific intervention and a dietary staple.”
The point is, they could be used as a therapeutic tool for specific health problems, not as a daily breakfast option. Your argument with total pufa content is sound, but you should reserve this reasoning for otherwise great food, like egg yolks.
The more PUFA you eat, the more saturated fats you have to eat.. If you “waste” 6 grams of PUFA only on oats, you need to increase your overall saturated fat intake and it will limit your overall maneuverability with the rest of your dietary habits.
You also have the problem of avenin, which in the more sensitive individuals will cause inflammation - in the best case your body will “merely” waste its valuable ATP and energy on dealing with this problematic protein.
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@zeitgeist
curious how you completely ignored the comparison analogy i made to endotoxin in milk powder which you just ignore but then also use as a point against oatmealtheres a study with celiacs where even 100g (dry weight, which makes an x-large serving for one person when cooked btw) of oatmeal is totally fine for people WITH celiac
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The nature of my job (and my hobbies) opens me up to the opportunity of venturing into the backcountry so I thought I'd start logging recipes as I go, hitch by hitch. I've always found it hard to eat "clean" while backpacking since most dehydrated meals include ingredients that are not very in-line with bioenergetic living. That's why I aim to make this thread a recipe log, where I experiment with different recipes and more or less rate their effectiveness as backpacking foods.
This first post I won't include a true recipe, but I will speak on the efficacy of milk powder. It's truly THE backcountry staple, at least to me, in terms of how useful it can be and how common and cheap it is. Of course it serves as a great creamer for camp coffee but also a great filler ingredient in many other recipes. I've actually made milk powder pancakes (classic!) while in the backcountry by very carefully carrying eggs in my pack, and they turned out great. Now I was missing a few ingredients just because they'd be strange to pack in but the next time I go out I might just make the batter first. Maybe I'll freeze it the night before I head out and just carry it frozen until it thaws? I've done it with other things, but food safety is always a major hurdle while eating in the backcountry. Anyways, I do plan to test out a ton of milk powder heavy recipes, and I welcome any recipes or ideas anyone might have.I’m impressed you brought fresh eggs. You’re fancy.
I’m on the smaller side so to keep my pack as light as possible, I use a lot of dehydrated food for backpacking trips like GORC (good old raisins and chocolate), fruit bars/leather—I make my own or when short on time, I buy the That’s It, Bear and Solely brands—and baked cheese crisps—again, I either make my own or buy the Whisps brand. For meals I make a lot of soups and stews with powdered bone broth as the base, dehydrated veggies, dried meat, dried parmesan cheese and when I still ate grains, sprouted rice and rice noodles, and for breakfast, I make egg scramble using powdered eggs, dried cheddar cheese, dried onions, dried peppers and all natural bacon bits. I also used to make an instant oatmeal mix from sprouted oats, dried fruit, spices, powdered milk and sugar.
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@sunsunsun In the notification centre, I can see that you mentioned that I was “oneshotted by Ray Peat forum”. I cannot see this reply anymore, you probably edited the message. I am not sure where you got that idea. Referencing Ray Peat wiki is something completely different - it is based only on work which Peat published, not on the questionable website you accuse me of being influenced by. I got into bioenergetics only after the aftermath of RPF fallout, my knowledge of that place is based merely on the stories I have heard.
As for your endotoxin argument. Firstly, you accuse me of ignoring the comparision to powdered milk - with that, I will deal shortly. But even though you make that claim, you did not deal with any of my arguments against oatmelas, which there are many. That approach is hypocritical.
I actually do not consume neither powdered milk nor oatmeals, but to make my answer thorough, I looked more into both of these substances. The negative effects of oatmelas were already mentioned, lets focus now on the powdered milk.
Your argument is mostly irrelevant, at least when making the comparision to oatmeals. Well-proccessed powdered milk includes fraction of the problematic substance, lps sits in micrograms, in 100 grams of oatmeals we are talking about 10 grams of beta-glucans. The analogy does not stand. Also, endotoxin in powdered milk behaves much differently - endotoxin is broken down by bile in duodenum, the beta-glucans on the other hand travel and ferment way lower - in lower part of of the small intestine and the large intestine - there the issue amplifies.
The studies you mentioned - I looked them up and the way in which they are conducted is what Ray criticised about modern academic and scientific research: analyzing isolated mechanism, incompetence and lack of holistic approach.
In none of the studies (anatuinen et al., NEJM 1995/2002 or Kemppainen et al) scientists measured basal body temperature, resting heart rate, the conversion of T4 to T3, prolactin, cortisol or the other factors which indicate the current state of your metabolism. Some of the participants in these studies left them prematurely due to gastrointestal problems, the less problematic symptoms like bloating or diarrhea were attributed to the sudden increased fiber intake (the body shall stabilise) and not seen as problematic on their own. The biggest problem which I see is that standardly, the studies are examining duodenum (via biopsy). Beta-glucans however ferment all the way down in ileum and large intestine! Thus, no problem can be found, since the scientists are incopetent in their research.
Still, when looking into the topic more deeply, I realised that conventional powdered milk is a lot more problematic than I thought and I will advise against it going further (@silvertipconch).
Due to the intense heat and oxygen which accompanies the drying process, the cholesterol in the milk oxidises, which creates many toxic substances, for example oxysterols. They block your enzymes from making progesterone and pregnanelone. Also, the thermal shock causes the protein to denaturate, which in short may cause allergic reactions and histamine overproduction. You can mostly work your way around this by buying higher quality product (Low-Heat Skim Milk Powder), that is a privelege which oatmeals do not offer.
Either way, your claim lacks validity and even though I thank you for the deepening of my knowledge in this area, your approach to the discussion is similar to the one on the old RPF, which you yourself criticise.
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@zeitgeist 10,00000000000 studies on the health promoting effects of beta glucans btw and a whole wall of cope instead of just admitting that saying oatmeal is only a medicinal food is just weird
Ray more than once or twice completely incorrectly cited studies in his articles and actually wrote the EXACT OPPOSITE conclusion of the study he referenced to support his article, so your copes about ray's criticism of scientific studies is just funny when I know for a fact ray didn't carefully read all of the very studies he referenced
it's just oatmeal, man. oatmeal is like one of the most inoffensive and lightest to carry when hiking and provides magnesium and carbohydrates in a filling and easy to cook way that is especially suited to camping. im sure milk powder is totally fine too, in fact combining milk powder with the oatmeal is probably a really good camping meal. you're just doing too much about this topic
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@sunsunsun There are hundreds of studies on the benefits of PUFAs and the unhealthiness of saturated fats. The same goes for fiber, serotonin, “T4 supplementation is enough” and many more core pillars or antipillars of bioenergetics. If you argue that Peat came to the opposite conclusion which the study claimed, provide a source.
The magnesium argument is unsound, I explained the antinutrient role of phytic acid - oatmeals deplete magnesium, not increase it. I also made the effort to go through the famous pro-oatmeals studies you mentioned and explained why their approach in conducting research is wrong, you did not refute any of that, only simply said that Ray made mistakes as well (without offering any examples). Also, it is not a cope, I thoroughly explained my disagrement with the studies, the one who is dismissive is you.
They are filling, sure - but if the world offers better alternatives, why stick with a suboptimal option? I am not saying they are poisonous, like in the case of nuts (which are also often recommended for hiking and considered healthy overall).
The way in which I interact with this forum is to find the best available methods, substances or foods to better my health, productivity and happiness. Sure, if the only option were oatmeals, I would say take the oatmeals. That however, is not the case.
We do not live in a severely starving society, at least I hope so. We have access to some of the greatest resources on health available, our options with potential remedies that are to our disposal are endless. Why stick with the flawed when the possibilities are limitless? We shall strive for new heights, remain cautious of becoming prideful, but otherwise try to do things which were thought impossible before.
With such a mindset that you seem to endorse, you limit yourself to the paths available.
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