Experiments with transdermal hormones
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I emailed them a year ago. I don't think this information is proprietary, since they shared it freely, but if anything I'll remove the image.
The actually effective fatty acids in their mixture are are the shorter chain ones (namely C8, C10, and C12). Those fats are incredibly smelly, and you would know about them in your product instantly. This means that they are in such low quantities that it's basically meaningless (or that their ratio is heavily skewed towards C14, and C16).
For example, when I used lauric acid, even in low <5% amounts, I can smell it on my skin for hours. Out of the medium chain fatty acids, LA is by far the best smelling (smells kind of chemically, not horrible but not good either), so if there would be any meaningful amount of C8 or C10, you would smell like you were rolling around with goats and sweat.
Basically, the SFA esters don't add much to the product, and in my opinion they might as well just use MCT oil.
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@brightside Interesting. So MCT oil would be a viable co-solvent along with ethanol? I only ask because I've never used it. Tocopherol has been an excellent lipid-based compound and I haven't had the need to venture out much further than that. It also mixes with more volatile solvents like ethanol without an issue too. I've noticed a mixture of ethanol & tocopherol to be particularly useful in getting DHT it solvent quite easily, which I've always noticed can be tricky as it's slightly more temperamental than normal T base.
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@Mulloch94 I was actually thinking of making a transdermal/sublingual dht solution with ethanol and vitamin e. Probably dissolving the dht powder in ethanol first and then adding the tocopherols. I honestly think dht + tocopherols might be the new meta. Progest-e for males basically. Have you experimented with something like that?
Progest-e also has coconut triglycerides so these might be somewhat important to improving the absorption, and then theres also the sfa esters like ipm and ipp haidut uses that may help, but i think hormones in vit e are better absorbed in thin cell membranes such as gums in general, while the sfa esters would enhance absorption on regular skin. -
@pannacottas Yes. I've tried DHT dissolved in pure tocopherol for oral usage. I've also used mixtures of ethanol + tocopherol + PG for topical use. I've even dissolved it in a mix of ethanol + tocopherol + progest-e. That might be my least favorite, as progesterone with DHT is too sedating for me.
It's possible, but I would assume the coconut triglycerides added to Progest-e are mostly there to make the product more pourable. As I've got a bottle of pure vitamin E, no added oils or anything. That shit is THICK. Very hard to work with if it's not warmed up first. I notice Progest-E is thinner and easier to pour.
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@Mulloch94 How did you like just dht in E orally vs the topical with ethanol?
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@pannacottas It's okay, I think the duration of action is much shorter though. I got hot and thermogenic for like 2 hours and it basically subsided. But that's to be expected. You also can't exactly dissolve as much in pure tocopherol as you can a mixture of ethanol and tocopherol. But you don't really need to either. If you're going to take it orally in vitamin E you can feel the effects in as little as 15mgs. Whereas if you're going to do it topically with ethanol I wouldn't waste my time with anything under 50mgs.
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I'm going to put an end to the dozens of messages I receive in my inbox on this forum : yes, ethanol + MCT oil + IPM has the best convenience and absorption profile of all transdermal methods, no DMSO is not ideal.
I use DMSO solutions when I want to elicit deep transcriptional changes, such as anchoring a long lasting androgenic state by megadosing DHT in DMSO for a few days. -
@Santosh What would be the significance of adding Isopropyl Myristate to the ethanol + MCT mixture?
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Seems like Salvo from Iron Legion is a good delivery system as well, but it's expensive. 25 dollars for a measly 30ml bottle is quite high by comparison of getting grain alcohol from my local liquor store.
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@Mulloch94 said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
@Santosh What would be the significance of adding Isopropyl Myristate to the ethanol + MCT mixture?
Quite significant.
Just type ethanol + IPM on pubmed -
@Mulloch94 said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
Seems like Salvo from Iron Legion is a good delivery system as well, but it's expensive. 25 dollars for a measly 30ml bottle is quite high by comparison of getting grain alcohol from my local liquor store.
There is no comparison, salvo is mostly benzyl alcohol, grain alcohol is ethanol.
Try rubbing large quantities of benzyl alcohol on your skin : headaches, blurred vision, constipation.Not only is salvo expensive, it's also a terrible health choice.
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@Santosh Thanks, yeah I didn't know IPM was that useful as a co-solvent. Apparently it's stronger than ethanol, and when mixed in a 2:1 ratio with ethanol enhances the capability, at least with Cialis.
@Santosh said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
Not only is salvo expensive, it's also a terrible health choice.
I already knew about benzyl alcohol's toxicity issue, but I wanted to see how I'd react nonetheless. Yeah not good. My skin was sensitive to it for one thing, but I also generally did not feel good when using their anti-estrogen product Virtus. Not sure if it lowered my estrogen too much or was related to the other ingredients, or both.
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@Santosh What ratios of Ethanol : MCT : IPM are you using? Do you think this gives a longer lasting effect than DMSO which is very short-lived for me?
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@metabolicmilk said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
@Santosh What ratios of Ethanol : MCT : IPM are you using? Do you think this gives a longer lasting effect than DMSO which is very short-lived for me?
80% ethanol
15% MCT
5% IPM -
@Santosh said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
I'm going to put an end to the dozens of messages I receive in my inbox on this forum : yes, ethanol + MCT oil + IPM has the best convenience and absorption profile of all transdermal methods, no DMSO is not ideal.
I use DMSO solutions when I want to elicit deep transcriptional changes, such as anchoring a long lasting androgenic state by megadosing DHT in DMSO for a few days.
???
Now it's the "best convenience and absorption profile of all transdermal methods"?
Why do you always talk with such pride? If you really wanted to put an end to the questions (or just be helpful) you would make a post about it, put it on your profile, or something of that sort.
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@Mulloch94 said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
@Santosh Thanks, yeah I didn't know IPM was that useful as a co-solvent. Apparently it's stronger than ethanol, and when mixed in a 2:1 ratio with ethanol enhances the capability, at least with Cialis.
@Santosh said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
Not only is salvo expensive, it's also a terrible health choice.
I already knew about benzyl alcohol's toxicity issue, but I wanted to see how I'd react nonetheless. Yeah not good. My skin was sensitive to it for one thing, but I also generally did not feel good when using their anti-estrogen product Virtus. Not sure if it lowered my estrogen too much or was related to the other ingredients, or both.
It's really not. The numbers for T's absorption come mostly from studies using AndroGel, something that has ethanol + IPM + carbomer. Those numbers are 9-14% absorbed hormone. IPM boosts the flux quite substantially, up to 11x in some study, but that just means you absorb the hormone faster, not necessarily more. ( you do end up absorbing more, especially since the IPM helps the Test stay dissolved on the skin, but, again, thats boosting it up to only a measly 9-14%.. )
I'm not saying IPM is a bad penetration enhancer, but just stating the facts, since Santosh likes to make up BS to make himself seem like the pioneer he really craves to be.
Also, this is just me being picky, but IPM is not a co-solvent (in the case of T), but a penetration enhancer. You can't dissolve a meaningful amount of hormone in IPM, and it doesn't increase the solvent capacity of mixtures either. (But to be fair, it seems to with Cialis, as mentioned in the study above).
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@Mulloch94 said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
@brightside Interesting. So MCT oil would be a viable co-solvent along with ethanol? I only ask because I've never used it. Tocopherol has been an excellent lipid-based compound and I haven't had the need to venture out much further than that. It also mixes with more volatile solvents like ethanol without an issue too. I've noticed a mixture of ethanol & tocopherol to be particularly useful in getting DHT it solvent quite easily, which I've always noticed can be tricky as it's slightly more temperamental than normal T base.
I personally don't see a reason to use it.
In order to boost penetration of fat soluble actives, you need to disrupt the lipid matrix. (unless relying on other mechanisms like denaturation of keratin proteins like DMSO) Fats like MCT and olive oil do do this, but only because they are a lipid that's not as structured as your lipid matrix. Pretty much any fat is less structured than your lipid matrix.
But, if you look at the stratum corneum lipid matrix, you can see that triglycerides are kind of massive in relation to everything else.
Why would you use more stable molecules, like MCT or other triglycerides instead of opting for smaller, more volatile and more disruptive lipids? (surfactants too) Simply switching from triglycerides to fatty acids drives up absorption dramatically, especially if the fatty acid is short or unsaturated.
Actually, I have yet to see a single study that says MCT oil is effective at increasing transdermal penetration of hormones.
Not only that, but MCT does not hold any hormone. MCT also sucks at mixing with ethanol. I did an experiment a year ago with a three dishes containing ethanol, ethanol+MCT, and ethanol+stearyl alcohol. The ethanol+MCT one crashed a few hours in (I was testing evaporation speed, so they were uncovered). I started out with roughly 80% Ethanol, 20% MCT, so that means the point at which it crashed was probably like 30% MCT, and 70% Ethanol? Something like that, but I never experimented to confirm.
To summarize, MCT isn't that miscible with ethanol, it's not a penetration enhancer, and it doesn't even hold any hormone. So then, why use it?
Moisturization is the only use I see.
Sorry for my little rant lol
It's interesting about the vitamin E. I wrongfully discounted it in the beginning, but clearly you and others are having good experiences with it. I'm kind of put off of the idea of using tocopherols since they are so thick. What kind of tocopherols are you using?
I'm asking because I'm concerned about the policosanols that are in the TocoVit type stuff. Since they're very long acids, they would probably add a structuring effect to the lipid matrix - something I don't want. Also, I'm curious if Vitamin E's effect comes from not necessarily by disruption, but by enhancing solubility of the hormone, like you mention.
Hmm, what do you think about this?
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I wish I had a better answer, but honestly - IDK.
I've been using a combination of scrotal T cream and DMSO + Test. However, since the test I have is apparently Test Prop, I can't really compare that to the T base, and can't say what would be the most effective or beneficial.
I can definitely feel that this test has a much slower come-up, and doesn't provide as much of a kick as T base would. Using scrotally, I feel a mild kick, and then it fades away after half a day, so I need to reapply, typically 2-3x per day. (I use 1pump @ 18.75mg / pump )
The DMSO that I use on my thigh at night seems to last all day?? but I don't really feel anything dramatic, which is probably good. I'd have to get bloods to tell you if it was actually getting me to good levels, but I feel perfectly fine. It also absorbs quite poorly, and feels fatty for a while before it crystalizes.
I've just recently gotten some kefir grains and started making and drinking kefir. It seems to be helping my gut quite a bit. If that works out, then I would be able to get a much better idea of which test application method works best, since gut issues really mask a lot of the effects of androgens.
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@brightside Wow, yeah 9-14% is quite low. I figured it would be at least like 30%. Do you think trace amounts (say 3-5% in a mixed solution) would be beneficial to help keep the hormone from drying on the surface of skin? Or is there better ways to prevent that?
Thanks for your input about MCT oil. I was on the fence about it anyways, because when I tried using EVOO + ethanol it did not turn out well. They were really not miscible at all, and I was wondering it the same thing happened with MCT oil. I feel like the miscibility plays a very crucial role whether or not certain solvents & skin penetrants have synergy.
In terms of pure alpha-tocopherol, it's completely miscible with ethanol. And personally I think the two work way better than ethanol + propylene glycol. I can't say for sure how the a-tocopherol makes it better, but my guess is in the solubility. Just based on what I've observed in playing with DHT. For me, DHT seems less soluble than testosterone. So I can never quite get as much DHT per ml as I can T per ml.
With the tocopherol mixed into the ethanol, it dissolves much better and at higher concentrations when put into a hot bath. I noticed my glass mixer which I stir everything up in is pretty clean after I dump the contents. Usually, with the ethanol + PG solution, there's a whitish residue leftover after everything evaporates and dries. I assume this white residue is a little leftover hormone. This is NOT there with the ethanol + tocopherol mixture. So I assume the hormone completely dissolves. Lot of guessing without much confirmation, but this has been my experience.
Now, there is some cons here. One the one hand, adding the ethanol makes the tocopherol alot more "workable." It's more like a liquid than a sap, which is good. It can be drawn up in a dropper and readily applied to whatever area you wish. The downside is the vitamin E adds a considerable amount of delay to the total drying time. This is probably very good in terms of hormone absorption, I guess. But it's not so convenient if you're worried about wiping your arm on someone and dosing them accidentally.
I suppose you can put it somewhere other than your forearm (that's where I like dosing though). However there's also the chance your clothes could wipe it off. So I guess the best thing you can do in those scenarios is just wrap the application site in plastic for a few hours before taking it off.
The product I use is indeed PURE alpha-tocopherol (my product). No added oils or policosanols. It's very viscous when room temp, but when warmed and mixed with alcohol it's practically a liquid at that point.
I've actually tried the same thing with Progest-E and ethanol before, it works too, albeit slightly less capable. Seemed to take longer to fully dissolve, idk if the coconut triglycerides in the progest-e was interfering or not. I felt the effects the same though, just didn't like it. DHT + Progesterone is way too lethargic of a feeling for me.
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@brightside said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
@Santosh said in Experiments with transdermal hormones:
I'm going to put an end to the dozens of messages I receive in my inbox on this forum : yes, ethanol + MCT oil + IPM has the best convenience and absorption profile of all transdermal methods, no DMSO is not ideal.
I use DMSO solutions when I want to elicit deep transcriptional changes, such as anchoring a long lasting androgenic state by megadosing DHT in DMSO for a few days.???
Now it's the "best convenience and absorption profile of all transdermal methods"?
Why do you always talk with such pride? If you really wanted to put an end to the questions (or just be helpful) you would make a post about it, put it on your profile, or something of that sort.
Oh I see, this whole thing is about your ego.
You can't accept that I started making threads about my discoveries back in 2019, and you arrived LONG after.
