How can I prepare low pH water (2.8) that doesn't cause acid base imbalance

ursidae

water acidified with HCl causes acid base imbalance, I think acidosis due to H3O+ excess plus bicarbonate depletion due to the chloride overload (hyperchloremic acidosis)

I can't use citric (my first choice) or acetic or any organic acid that interferes with glucose metabolism for this

I can't add carbonate salts and then HCL because they get hydrated to carbonic acid at pH under 4 and the equilibrium is shifted to the left and it cycles between CO2 and H2CO3, leaving the system little by little in the form of CO2

if I carbonated the water after modification with HCL and NaHCO3, the CO2 would leave the bottle quickly because the hydronium ions favour the left side and theoretically CO2 would build up in the air in the bottle, shifting the equilibrium to the right but it would only enter the system at the points where the air is in contact with water which is still almost nothing

no possibility for high temperature or high pressure storage of the water

also needs to be autoclaved which would cause explosions if carbonated

Could I bring water to pH 5 with HCL then turn it into a phosphate buffer with phosphoric acid plus calcium dihydrophosphate plus calcium chloride (to get a healthy P: Ca ratio ? Then add potassium bicarbonate and it cycles between the salt and carbonic acid form because it's a buffer rather than leaving as CO2
how would the phosphoric harm the organism? It's a product of protein metabolism along with sulfuric so it would probably also cause acidosis just like HCL

Amazoniac

@ursidae

You don't want to affect acid-base balance at all or want to limit the effect to H+ rather than confounding it with other ions?

If it's the former, you would be after a solution that concentrates more free protons to not impact the solution in another compartment that concentrates orders of magnetism 🧲 less protons (pH 2.8 > pH 7.4). Something would have to bind them and prevent their absorption or counteract them, but the pH of the gut increases after the stomach and molecules tend to release protons instead of taking them up. It's tricky.

If it's the latter, while we were waiting for demon-
stration that the cure for cancer is silicic acid conditioned to its acidification, tartaric acid came up to put it to test because of its relative inertness. Tartaric acid can leave the body intact (cross your fingers) and has two protonatable sites in the molecule.

Half-dissociation inconstants of some non-metabolizable molecules, with values sourced from chatbot (very reliable):

Sulfuric acid (H2SO4):

pKa1 ≈ 2
pKa2 ≈ 7.14

Phosphoric acid (H3PO4):

pKa1 ≈ 2.15
pKa2 ≈ 7.20
pKa3 ≈ 12.35

Tartaric acid (C4H6O6):

pKa1 ≈ 2.98
pKa2 ≈ 4.34

pH:

Ingested ≈ 2.8
Excreted (urine) ≈ 6

Tartaric acid has a higher pKa1 and a lower pKa2. pKa1 would be relevant for the ingested and pKa2 for the excreted pH.

Ingestion: pKa1 higher than water pH → more protons are going to be incorporated in comparison to sulfate and phosphate
Excretion: pKa2 lower than urine pH → less protons are going to be carried out incorporated in comparison to sulfate and phosphate

The last option would provide excess chloride in relation to sodium and might impact hydrocarbonate levels as speculated before. The solution would contain anions of carbonic and phosphoric acids, and the addition of potassium hydrocarbonate would lead to redistribution of protons (H2PO4– ↷ HCO3–) followed by formation of carbonic acid and then carbon dioxide. The presence of phosphate must not prevent the formation of carbon dioxide. Cooling the carbonated water to slow down the spontaneous reactions won't work when the solution is warmed in the gut. In addition, to balance phosphate, we fall on the same problem of finding an inert counterion for calcium.

Therefore, tartaric acid seems a fair option. To avoid an objectionable taste, it can be encapsulated.

yerrag

@ursidae

Acid-base imbalance isn't caused by intake of low pH liquids. The only time I drank Coke, which has a pH from 2-3, that made me feel sick was when I already was suffering from an acid-base imbalance (due to a prolonged condition of bronchitis that restricted my oxygen supply).

A healthy body, is capable of taking in a permissible level of acid and while during the day a temporary state of acid-base imbalance may result, the body has enough mechanisms and stores of buffer ( such as CO2 from mitochondrial metabolism) to correct it, especially during sleeping hours.

Meet is acidic, but that doesn't keep me from eating meet because it has nutrients without which I would be lacking basic building blocks to make proteins, enzymes, and hormones. The body in balance will deal with it as it should. In good time. And never late in doing so.

It's people with issues, ranging from infections to toxins to internal metabolic inadequacies and bottlenecks that experience an internal inability to balance an acidic (or at times alkaline) imbalance. That imbalance left to persist and become chronic is a stress one can do without. The body will have to adapt, and in so doing, create more stressors within to compensate for the defective situation.

Acid-base imbalance is under-diagnosed all the time. Doctors, with all their training, rarely, if not never, talk about it. Instead they give us false bogeymans such as high cholesterol and high blood pressure.

Ironically, a lot of the drugs they give us to "fix" these bogeyman's present us with a host of real and non-imaginary issues to deal with.

A major issue made trivial is acid-base imbalance, in the medical system ever constant sleight-of-hand.

the MOUSE

@yerrag said in How can I prepare low pH water (2.8) that doesn't cause acid base imbalance:

A healthy body, is capable of taking in a permissible level of acid and while during the day a temporary state of acid-base imbalance may result, the body has enough mechanisms and stores of buffer ( such as CO2 from mitochondrial metabolism) to correct it, especially during sleeping hours.

can taking citrate/bicarb assists this?

yerrag

@the-MOUSE

Taking baking soda, bicarbonate such as mag bicarb, or drinking carbonated drinks (containing CO²) assists the body in correcting an acidic imbalance.

ursidae

@Amazoniac

thank you so much

I'm not sure if the guys at the lab will provide me with tartaric acid. They're generally against using organic acids for this experiment.

I'm trying to find some facts about its pharmacokinetics, where do you source your information ?

If it's indeed inert and wouldn't affect the micro biome too drastically then I'll use it

I want to try and maximise the difference between the two waters by mimicking the natural variation among tap/spring/mineral
waters

Silicilic acid sounds like a good idea to me actually
There's brands with 60 mg/L of it here

then there's some waters that are naturally at pH 4.5 due to some amount of phosphoric acid

If I use a mix of silicilic and phosphoric with some of their conjugate salts (and possibly tartaric) to bring the pH down and then perhaps a little bit of HCl then the mice wouldn't be ingesting too many chloride ions. I could even use hypochlorous acid instead of HCl because it's a weak acid

Amazoniac

@ursidae said in How can I prepare low pH water (2.8) that doesn't cause acid base imbalance:

@Amazoniac

thank you so much

I'm not sure if the guys at the lab will provide me with tartaric acid. They're generally against using organic acids for this experiment.

I'm trying to find some facts about its pharmacokinetics, where do you source your information ?

If it's indeed inert and wouldn't affect the micro biome too drastically then I'll use it

I want to try and maximise the difference between the two waters by mimicking the natural variation among tap/spring/mineral
waters

Silicilic acid sounds like a good idea to me actually
There's brands with 60 mg/L of it here

then there's some waters that are naturally at pH 4.5 due to some amount of phosphoric acid

If I use a mix of silicilic and phosphoric with some of their conjugate salts (and possibly tartaric) to bring the pH down and then perhaps a little bit of HCl then the mice wouldn't be ingesting too many chloride ions. I could even use hypochlorous acid instead of HCl because it's a weak acid

Tartaric acid is not completely inert, but more than the common organic acids. You'd have to search for its fate in mice because of differences in processing between animals. Part of the dose can be metabolized by gut microbes, but the amounts involved shouldn't lead to gross disturbances. I don't source the information from a specific site. The linked publication in Sate's thread can be a starting point.

The silicic acid content of the mentioned water is too low (0.06 g SA/1000 g water). Its half-dissociation constants are also low (↓Ka; ↑pKa), so protons won't be released in the body. For comparison with the above acids:

Silicon as Versatile Player in Plant and Human Biology: Overlooked and Poorly Understood

Orthosilicic acid (H4SiO4):

pKa1 ≈ 9.8
pKa2 ≈ 13.2

"[..]below pH 9 it commonly occurs as uncharged monomeric form [(H4SiO4)o] which is the most readily absorbable form of Si in humans and plants (Weast and Astle, 1983; Knight and Kinrade, 2001; Jugdaohsingh et al., 2002; Ma et al., 2008)."

If you were to give substantial doses of something like sodium silicate, it would consume protons and alkalinize because of such property.

Final report on the safety assessment of potassium silicate, sodium metasilicate, and sodium silicate

ursidae

@Amazoniac
thank you
I was told I can only use the stuff in the cupboard unfortunately and nothing like tartaric acid can be ordered

I've been thinking of injecting them with bicarbonate twice a week or more. I'll bypass the gut and there will be no more acid conundrums. Gonna be doing a literature search on the methods and moles of how this has been done.

3 groups for now. Sadly I only got 10 animals. 4 animals tap water, 2 of them injected with bicarbonate
3 animals with tap water diluted with deionised to reduce the buffering capacity/ionic strength, 1 of them injected with bicarbonate
3 animals with tap water enriched with MgSO4, KH2PO4 and NaHCO3, 1 injected with bicarbonate

ursidae

@ursidae

nevermind, apparently that's not okay to do either. Can't do anything except add lab salts to the water

Amazoniac

@ursidae said in How can I prepare low pH water (2.8) that doesn't cause acid base imbalance:

@ursidae

nevermind, apparently that's not okay to do either. Can't do anything except add lab salts to the water

Pancreatic NaHCO3 would be reacting with HCl, so it can be supplied after the victims absorb the acidified water to make up for it. One part of NaHCO3 for every part of added HCl.

NaHCO3 + HCl → H2CO3 + NaCl

And you can decrease the corresponding amount of NaCl in the diet.

Why All Healthy Laboratory Animals Should Be Rehomed, No Matter How Small

the MOUSE

@yerrag thanks, do u think citrate can be used instead of bicarb? or is bicarb better

yerrag

@the-MOUSE

Is there a particular reason you ask about using citrate?

Citric acid, unless from citrus fruit, is mostly made industrially from black molds. Potassium and sodium citrate powders are made this same citric acid.

So one can't help but be wary of black mold contamination as production methods always allow for a specified and allowed level of contamination, without which production cost would become impractical and prohibitive.

3 years ago, I happened to be taking a mixture to increase the zeta-value of my blood to improve its flow characteristics. It so happened that I took also an antibiotic that is known to produce cwd (cell wall deficient) bacteria. I got very sick with which I believe to be a fungal infection. I was so sick that In cramped all over, had cold sweat at night, my platelets were down so much, and I was running a high fever. That was at the height of COVID hoaxing, and my chance of surviving would be nil had I allowed myself to be admitted to a hospital. I self-treated with breathing carbogen, and slowly got myself back to health.

If I weren't keeping careful records, I wouldn't have made the connection to the likely cause of my sickness.

Thanks to @haidut for sharing the article on the source of citric acid being black molds. Otherwise, we would just be thinking of citric acid as a harmless innocuous substance.
My part is to be constantly tuned to such reports which would be on the RPF then and not on the mainstream channels.

yerrag

@yerrag

Add: I would now put I gram of baking soda and mix with 16grams of lemon juice in a liter of 1 liter of water to make my own safe version of a Zeta-Aid solution to improve the flow peoperties of my blood.

the MOUSE

@yerrag i see tyvm. no idea citrate had that risk, just thought as its pre cheap n alternative to bicarb n can hyrdrate siumilar to fruits