K2 and CoQ10 for Mitochondrial Health

Galaroc

I was researching Vitamin K2 and came across the following article regarding its interaction at a cellular level with CoQ10 to produce ATP, and how K2 cannot replace it within the mitochondria ie. it is required for ATP production. The article also notes the extreme nonbioavailability of CoQ10 ingested orally with effective supplementation requiring 30-50mg / kg daily, equating to minimum 3g per day for a 100kg man. Given that the richest foods containing CoQ10 such as beef heart and liver have only about 11mg per 100g, is it possible that that this is a commonly missed pathway to more energy? The typical western diet has insignificant amounts of both K2 and CoQ10 and, the Faustian Peater (RIP) within me is curious if anyone has ever tried an aggressive K2 and CoQ10 regime, or has heard any anecdotes about it being tried.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332642560_Vitamin_K2_cannot_substitute_Coenzyme_Q10_as_electron_carrier_in_the_mitochondrial_respiratory_chain_of_mammalian_cells

cs3000

@Galaroc its usually synthesised in our bodies using tyrosine / acetyl-coa (vit b5 needed) but theres a tendency for it to drop in older age / with use of statins etc , so yeah commonly missed there
there are still decent effects at lower doses in studies ~ 100-200mg it just takes a while to build up in some tissues, e.g 1 or 2 months in the heart https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Effects-of-Oral-Coenzyme-Q10-on-Preventing-the-of-Demirci-Beytut/28eb9ea9631cf1e36aeb52ff6e95fe8ddc6ca801

cs3000

@cs3000 said in K2 and CoQ10 for Mitochondrial Health:

@Galaroc its usually synthesised in our bodies using tyrosine / acetyl-coa (vit b5 needed) but theres a tendency for it to drop in older age / with use of statins etc , so yeah commonly missed there
there are still decent effects at lower doses in studies ~ 100-200mg it just takes a while to build up in some tissues, e.g 1 or 2 months in the heart https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Effects-of-Oral-Coenzyme-Q10-on-Preventing-the-of-Demirci-Beytut/28eb9ea9631cf1e36aeb52ff6e95fe8ddc6ca801

this with a small sample showed an average of -10% ATP production loss from age 30 per decade in tissue from donors of different ages (for people not aware to actively influence it), and coq10 helped restore a portion https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6145312/

Galaroc

@cs3000 Fascinating, I had no idea it played such an important role. Do you supplement or otherwise prioritize CoQ10? I think I should be getting a sufficient amount from 400g liver weekly and the resulting downstream metabolism of the nutrients within.

Interesting to see the researchers explicitly discuss the mitochondrial theory of aging with increasing DNA damage and impairment of DNA repair being the hallmark of "aging".

"The results of this study correlate with the “maximum metabolic slope theory” by Prinzinger that suggests a correlation between life span and energy production."

Sounds familiar. Have you heard of this theory? I am just beginning to research it now.

cs3000

@Galaroc i tried it but didnt notice benefits (maybe other problems meaning benefits couldnt be gained or maybe my coq10 synthesis is good and not a limiting factor for energy production for me?). apparently its good with heart failure

sounds like there is some "programmed in" thinking mixed into that? like theres some sort of counter for atp that when it hits mitochondria stop or something? as speculation.
but mitochondria repair / replace in right conditions, co2/atp production clearly dynamic, older age people sill respond positively to supplements that influence mitochondria etc

but haidut posted this http://haidut.me/?p=2144 highlighting the type of metabolism increase is important .
someone can have high metabolism but be excessively uncoupled (i.e low functioning of the last part of the Electron Transport Chain in mitochondria), so lacking atp production, or someone can have high metabolism but atp produced from glycolysis without the co2 benefits u get from mitochondria linked metabolism so worsen longevity. or another factor could be ramping up the ETC too much for what the cell can handle with current factors (too much ROS production in the process), where milder increase could be protective

increased co2 production in cells from increased metabolic rate is an important factor in aging / longevity
ray mentioned some stuff on that in https://raypeat.com/articles/articles/salt.shtml