TSH 3.82 but high t3? Unsure whether i should supplement

[AndrewPeatMatrix]

Got TSH tested at 3.82 but my t3 was high. my doc says 3.82 is in range so wont supplement i was wondering if i should do my own thing but i dont know how to deal with a bad tsh and good t3 levels? has anyone ever encountered something like this?

[LucH]

Hi,
The answer won't be short, sorry.
AndrewPeatMatrix situation
High TSH (3.82)
High T3 level

TSH thyroid standards
A high concentration of TSH indicates that the thyroid is not sufficiently active: the pituitary gland compensates by developing an excessive amount of TSH in order to stimulate the thyroid to produce T3 and T4.
A light or more serious hypothyroidism affects women more often, in particular.
Standards
According to the American Thyroid Society (American Thyroid Society), the normal TSH must be between 0.4 and 2.5.
http://www.thyroid.org/patients/brochures/hypothyroidism _web_booklet.pdf
In Canada, normal rates are said to be 0.35 to 4.7. However, most scientists consider that the normal rate should not exceed 2 !!
In the United States the maximum standard has been 3 for a long time.
Comment: A low or a high TSH results from a communication between the brain (hypophysis) and the thyroid. So, the link must be optimal.

I see 2 main points:

• How to optimize the communication with the thyroid (useful nutrients to bring and halogens to avoid).
• Relieve liver.
• How to reduce excess estrogen and regular stress.
  Note: High rate PUFA, from 3 g (supplement omega-3), will act as a metabolism inhibitor, which can worsen a situation of hypothyroidism.
• With high T3 (and high TSH), it could be a problem with excess estrogen (estrogen dominance). T3 is ineffective because of a problem with too much thyroxine-binding globulin (TBG). See the explanation below.
  Make a search with: TBG T3 and estrogen dominance if other further info is required.
  See some interesting info on next post.
  Hope it could help.

[LucH]

Useful links
*) ## Vitamin D levels reduces cortisol by 40 % (> 45 ng/ml).
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/vitamin-d-reduces-cortisol-in-humans-by-40.8977/#post-270013
Haydut said:
No need to introduce the well-known vitamin and its role in pathologies like diabetes and even cancer. The interesting part is that the study was very short (only 14 days) and used not too high of a vitamin D does (2,000 IU daily). A key finding was the reduction in cortisol by over 40%, as well as the reduction in blood pressure. The reduction in blood pressure has also been confirmed in another human study, (see here: viewtopic.php?f=218&t=5087) and given cortisol's role in the pathology the effect of vitamin D is not surprising.
http://www.endocrine-abstracts.org/ea/0038/ea0038p204.htm

*) Which nutrients to optimize the function

• Tyrosine intervenes as a precursor of thyroid hormones. This amino acid is indeed attached to iodine atoms to form thyroid hormones.
• Manganese is essential for the synthesis of thyroxine (T4). (Mind excess Mn!)
• The enzyme that allows the conversion of T4 (pro-hormone) to T3 (active hormone) requires the presence of mineral cofactors:

Copper, iron, selenium and zinc + Mg

• Group B vitamins also contribute to the proper functioning of the thyroid gland. They act in synergy. I’d take a co-enzyme formula, twice a week.
• Other nutrients could also help to improve thyroid function, vitamins A (retinol), C and E, without forgetting magnesium, which prevents the reduction in the thyroid activity.
  *) Mind excess estrogen and regular stress.
  Estrogen Dominance & Thyroid Function

Estrogen dominance (ED) mimics hypothyroidism by interfering with thyroid hormones.

One way that estrogen dominance impacts on thyroid health is by stopping the conversion of T4 into T3 thyroid hormone which leads to low T3 levels. But you’re not concerned.

ED inhibits Thyroid action and lowers the rate of metabolism of the Body.

Estrogen increases Thyroid Binding Globulin (TBG) in blood hindering TH activity. Thyroid

hormones are carried by Thyroid Binding Globulin, a specific protein produced by the liver. An increased number of binding proteins hold onto more of the thyroid hormone. Since protein-bound hormones (“tied-up”) can't bind to their receptor, this reduces the free thyroid hormones in the blood that will be available to cells for maintaining metabolism, even though blood TH levels may test normal or high.
NB: Circulating thyroid hormone is highly bound (>99%) to thyroid binding globulin.
In cases of high TBG, more thyroid hormone will be bound, decreasing free hormone in the blood.

Expressed in another way:
Estrogen increases levels of thyroxine-binding globulin (TBG). This protein binds and transports thyroid hormones. Bound thyroid hormones are inactive; so elevated TBG can contribute to a hypothyroid state. A thyroid panel with added TBG can assess for hypothyroidism due to estrogen dominance.

How to balance
If excess estrogens inhibits thyroid, natural progesterone counterbalances this effect. Treating estrogen dominance and restoring hormone balance automatically reverses hypo-like symptoms. It takes time …
Changing your diet is one element. See carrot salad receipt. Cleansing or protecting your liver is another way to facilitate homeostasis (to get rid of excess estrogen) but you need eating enough proteins to detoxify…
Chronic stress 1:
Stress of any kind decreases progesterone levels to increase production of cortisol…
So, reduce stress & environmental toxins such as fluoride, chloride, pesticides & pollutants (mercury, arsenic in rice), lithium or beta-blockers …
Chronic Stress 2
Pregnenolone is the building block for all sex hormones and cortisol, the body's stress hormone. The pregnenolone steal is the phenomenon that occurs when high stress forces the upregulation of cortisol synthesis from pregnenolone, reducing the availability of pregnenolone to be converted to other hormones. The pregnenolone steal contributes to estrogen dominance by impairing progesterone synthesis and creating an elevated estrogen-to-progesterone ratio.
Source: rupahealth.com – a functional medicine protocol for estrogen dominance

*) Interesting links:
http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/aging-estrogen-progesterone.shtml
http://www.vrp.com/hormone-support/the-hidden-causes-behind-hormonal-imbalances
http://thyroid.answers.com/thyroid-health/what-role-does-estrogen-play-in-thyroid-function-and-health
http://raypeat.com/articles/hormones/h1.shtml

*) interaction between liposoluble vitamins
Synergy effect with vitamin E
“Vitamin C regenerates vitamin E and vitamin E protects β-carotene, helped in this by polyphenols. In the event of β-carotene supplementation, vitamin C regenerates vitamin E and β-carotene, and β-carotene seems to protect vitamin E without really explaining this phenomenon "(1)
Savings effect
Vitamin E is not just a vitamin. Vitamin C makes it possible to recycle oxidized vitamin E and thus prolong its lifespan. The same goes with glutathione which is thus saved for other more useful functions (detox). Glutathion is our antioxidant master. Vitamin E protects against the deleterious effects of polyunsaturated fatty acids when the latter are in excess. And it is quickly done!

1. John Libbey Eurotext - Anti-oxydants d’origine alimentaire : diversité, modes d’action anti-oxydante, interactions. Auteur : Claude Louis Léger.
   *) La vitamine E est un anti-œstrogénique, plus qu'un simple antioxydant. Elle empêche les AGPI de se comporter en pro-œstrogènes inflammatoires dans l'organisme. 20-25 mg par jour (au moins 2 tocophérols)

[AndrewPeatMatrix]

@LucH thank you in-depth reply, do you think its worth supplementing thyroid despite having high t3?

[LucH]

AndrewPeatMatrix asked:
Could supplementing T3 help?
=> You’ve already an appropriate level of T3. But how does it end up?

• When T3 has been bound to TBG for the transport to the target, bound-T3 must be freed.
  General info
  T3 has 2 forms: bound and free. Bound T3 is attached to a protein and free T3 is not attached to anything. The free T-3 test measures only the amount of free T3. The total T3 test measures both free and bound T3 in your blood.
  Most circulating T3 is produced outside the thyroid in peripheral tissues by monodeiodination of T4. Only one fifth of circulating T3 is secreted directly by the thyroid.
  https://www.msdmanuals.com/professional/endocrine-and-metabolic-disorders/thyroid-disorders/overview-of-thyroid-function#Synthesis-and-Release-of-Thyroid-Hormones_v981233

Type of tests for Triiodothyronine (T3)
https://www.verywellhealth.com/interpret-your-thyroid-test-results-3231840
Triiodothyronine (T3) is the active thyroid hormone converted from T4. As with T4, there is both bound and free T3.
T3 blood tests include:
• Total T3: The total amount of T3 (bound and unbound) in your bloodstream
• Free T3: The amount of unbound T3 available for use in tissues
• Reverse T3: An inactive form of T3 that has no utility but can block free T3 from entering tissues
What causes high TSH and high T3?
Search with: "High TSH and high T3" (with brackets)
=> TRH in addition to increasing TSH causes to rise prolactin level. A test for prolactin and estrogen could give a clue.
TRH = Thyroid releasing hormone.

More info is needed.

Do you have any symptoms of hypo-metabolism (because of High TSH)?
Any inflammation of stomach or liver? Etc.
Thyrotoxic Crisis (Thyroid Storm) ?
I didn’t find a suitable path with the information I had.
We have to proceed by elimination. I Haven't a clear image.

[AndrewPeatMatrix]

@LucH Thank you for another insightful answer

I have fatty liver and a few symptoms of hypothyroid, in particular fatigue. Both in general and very bad the day after exercise. I have poor mental health, difficultly losing weight (im 15kg overweight), i get puffy after eating certain foods, poor memory

[LucH]

1. I would treat the situation as if you were digestive enzyme deficient to relieve the metabolism of macronutrients. See details below (1)
2. Consider you’re hypothyroid, even if you’re border line with the TSH (between 2.5-5), whenever other symptoms are present. Here, it’s the case: brain fog, fatigue, digestion.
   What about your body temperature? (2)
3. You’ll need to be assisted: a comprehensive therapist who‘d accept to follow your advice when asking to follow one target.
4. Get informed before beginning a treatment. You’ll probably need recovering staples in order to get enough energy. Handle as if you got SIBO / SIFO.
   See my log on my forum: Journal de suivi – Luc. Démangeaison et histamine (histamine intolérance, dysbiose)

• Témoignages SIBO / SIFO
  https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t2029-demangeaison-et-histamine-journal-de-suivi-2#29583

5. If you kill bacteria (bacterial overgrowth = dysbiosis), you need to assist the liver and to understand how to manage whenever you feel uneasy / ill / upset / worried / … (3)
6. See how other people manage to do without an appropriate therapist.
   Thyroid Log, by GreekDemiGod.
   https://bioenergetic.forum/topic/1659/thyroid-log?_=1720081167607
   PS: You won’t take T3 supplement but will observe how to manage / open an appropriate log with useful info. Make a difference between the facts and what you feel. Not based on short term.
7. If you feel as in a brain-foggy state, you’ll need to be assisted by a therapist to be supervised. I can’t do that.

References

1. Enzyme deficience

• Enzymedica lypogold + betaine HCl (Now Food) once at supper in case of difficulty to digest meat.
• Need to get informed on the way to optimize digestion (fibbers at first), to avoid hypoglycemia (Jessie Inchauspé). If you don’t get insulin spikes, there won’t be any food storage in the adipocytes (fat) unless you stress a lot. No weight lose if you often stress. A relaxation technique is then required: yoga, eft, sophrology or a simple breathing technique.
  Collagen powder (glycine => gaba-like = relax + half of the protein intake, possibly) and L-theanine supplement 250 mg (relaxes brain); it would be a good choice.

2. An endocrinologist is needed. Here, it’s a doctor in internal medicine. But when you’re borderline (TSH < 5), they don’t take it into account. Moreover there is a huge delay (1 year for well-known doctors, 3 months in university hospital).
   Note: Most medicine practicians are going to treat the dysbiosis with antibiotics. OK, but it won’t be sufficient. You must have a plan when you aim for a goal (anticipation).
3. SIBO and BIOFILM
   When SIBO has been installed for some time (+/ 1 year), bacteria have had time to settle. They communicate with each other (Quorung Sensing) and protect themselves from attacks behind a biofilm. You won’t kill all the bacteria. But you need to occupy the place with new ones. Life hates a vacuum. You have to occupy the place to avoid a timely selection of multi-resistant bacteria.
4. You’ll need some thiamine (B1) and PLP (B6) high dose, with a strict protocol (see Dr. Allil Overton) to help the communication between the brain and the stomach, through the HPA axis. The microbiota-gut-brain axis is a bidirectional signaling pathway that operates through neural, endocrine, immune, and metabolic pathways.
   HPA axis: The hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis is a crucial communication system that manages the body’s response to stress. It involves three key organs: the hypothalamus, pituitary gland, and adrenal glands.
   Note: B2 will be needed too. Not only. I’d take a vitamin B complex 50 mg twice a week (co-enzyme). See my forum for a selection if you can’t find one without rubbish excipients. => Mirzoune et Ciboulette + Vitamines B Complexes & Dioxyde de titane.
   https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t845-vitamines-b-complexes-dioxyde-de-titane#14314
   Note: I take Pure Encapsulation B Complex Plus, 2x/wk.
5. Your liver is overburdened like many people …
   When you’ll lose weight, your fatty liver will recover a lot but not enough. Never try to lose more than 2 Kg (4 pounds) a week (with staples: standstill levels will arise). Never go under 80 % of your required calories, otherwise you’ll get problems.
   => A salad carrot once a day to drive LPS toxin away.
   => I would try to get accustomed with green shakes (40% fruits, and 60% veggies). See Valya Boutenko’s video to avoid common errors. Not too much fructose. Drink only once a day, with useful micronutrients (Mg bisglycinate/ K citrate, taurine and phosphocalcium if you can’t get enough Ca (850 mg Ca/ day) from your menus. I follow my daily contributions through a log: cronometer.com. Easier to understand what’s wrong.
   In this shake, I’d add collagen powder (1 Tsp : +/ 5 gr). Begin progressively. Target 10-20 gr/day powder.
   See “How to make a green smoothie” - Valya Boutenko.
   https://youtu.be/552mPSVfFWo
   https://youtu.be/552mPSVfFWo (same source, update)
   Copy the link in a search engine (no click).
   To make a good smoothie you should know the difference between the existing fibers. There are two kinds of fibers: soluble fibers and insoluble fibers. See suggestion on my forum.
   https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t395-reussir-un-delicieux-smoothie?highlight=smoothie

[AndrewPeatMatrix]

@LucH thank you, ill get on cracking on that. i think i can talk my doctor into prescribing me levothyroxine, should i go down that path?

[LucH]

@AndrewPeatMatrix
Yes, it's a possibility.
But you'll have to be patient, with staples +/ 10 days (10-15 days) to let the brain adjust the whole thing. With high and down waves in mood / energy.
But before doing that, I'll deal with LPS toxins, relieve liver and bring useful nutrients through a balanced diet. Then, your thyroid will be in better sheets to recover, to avoid "adrenal exhaustion" (overburning).
Note:

1. liver is the central organ to pamper / help.
2. If you only take T3 or T4, believing / seeing how it's going to happen, it's like shooting into your feet.
   T-3-4 are not going to solve the dysbiosis and help to get rid of LPS toxins.

You need to balance the communication between the HPA axis.

[AndrewPeatMatrix]

@LucH Thank you, ill get on the carrot salad and meditation/yoga. Anything else to help out?

[LucH]

@AndrewPeatMatrix
Make a plan: step by step..
A carrot salad once a day IS fine (or twice if between meals).