What Did Dr. Pete Say The K-2 To Calcium Ratio Was?
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(I also posted this on the Ray Peat Subreddit - hoping I get an answer somewhere)
I’m a big fan of Dr. Peat. Everything he has written about, in my personal experience, has proven to be accurate. He was a true pioneer. I had followed him for several years but didn’t really understand a lot of what he wrote. In the past I couldn’t wrap my mind around things he had written As “working” properly. This probably was due to the pervasive brainwashing of the mainstream government led food “advice” that we’ve been endoctrinated with over the last 65+ years. What damage that endoctrination has done!
It wasn’t until the last few years, after putting his ideas/principals into practice, that I realise how right he was about so many things.Just had to say that.
Anyway, back to my question. If you are consuming a lot of dairy ( which I am now) how much K-2 does one supplement with?
*My goal is to get 1,200 mgs. of calcium thru diet, not supplements
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@Amethyst said in What Did Dr. Pete Say The K-2 To Calcium Ratio Was?:
Anyway, back to my question. If you are consuming a lot of dairy ( which I am now) how much K-2 does one supplement with?
Hi,
You have to decide which king of K2 you want: MK4 or MK7?
Mk4 twice a day (half life); MK7 must be protected from oxidation (no liquid form). -
@LucH said in What Did Dr. Pete Say The K-2 To Calcium Ratio Was?:
@Amethyst said in What Did Dr. Pete Say The K-2 To Calcium Ratio Was?:
Anyway, back to my question. If you are consuming a lot of dairy ( which I am now) how much K-2 does one supplement with?
Hi,
You have to decide which king of K2 you want: MK4 or MK7?
Mk4 twice a day (half life); MK7 must be protected from oxidation (no liquid form).I take a full spectrum Vitamin K2 which has both the MK4 (500 mcg) and MK7 (100 mcg) from ( Innovix Labs)
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@LucH said in What Did Dr. Pete Say The K-2 To Calcium Ratio Was?:
@Amethyst said in What Did Dr. Pete Say The K-2 To Calcium Ratio Was?:
Anyway, back to my question. If you are consuming a lot of dairy ( which I am now) how much K-2 does one supplement with?
Hi,
You have to decide which king of K2 you want: MK4 or MK7?
Mk4 twice a day (half life); MK7 must be protected from oxidation (no liquid form).So how much to take if I am taking in at least 1,200 mgs. of calcium?
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@Amethyst said in What Did Dr. Pete Say The K-2 To Calcium Ratio Was?:
So how much to take if I am taking in at least 1,200 mgs. of calcium?
How much vitamin K?
I’ve had a discussion on RPF about the dosage of vitamin K2. How much is too much?
Details are given beneath (last part).
I won’t recommend taking more than 2 mg / day, given the fact that the menaquinones (K2 family) are broken down into menadiones, which can be "toxic" If repeated.
http://ajplung.physiology.org/content/ajplung/262/5/L637.full.pdfHere are the main points
Haidut said:
“Does it mean that more than 2mg K2 at a time will lead to toxic levels of K3?”
LucH answered:
Well, we don't know exactly. This is a supposed by-side effect. I explain.
Conversion of excess menaquinones in menadiones
We know menadione is a metabolite of oral vitamin K supplement.
Phylloquinone (K1) is converted into menaquinone-4 and accumulates in extrahepatic tissues. Neither the route nor the function of the conversion is totally known. One supposed metabolic route is the conversion of 5 – 25 % of menadione from phylloquinone by catabolic activity. 10 – 15 % is most likely converted. But this is aleatory (due to intestinal absorption) and not equally distributed. We can only measure the presence of menadione in urine and make deductions when excreted. (1)
When taking excess menadiones, through conversion / excretion it would be quite advisable to take some NAC to get enough selenium to neutralize ROS. Adaptive response. (2) Menadione generates ROS through redox cycling, and high concentrations trigger cell death. If lack of glutathione. (3 – 4)
Edit: No NAC if supplementing B3 vitamin.
Correction form Haidut:
Haidut said:
I think selenium is a much safer option then NAC. The cysteine has a lot of bad effects on the organism.
LucH answers:
=> Yes, cysteine could depress thyroid function in case of insufficient iodine.
Conversation following, by LuH:Menadione in excess clearly affects the mitochondrial function. (5)
However there is no reported health risk when taking K2. Excess K2 is excreted through urine and feces (through bile). No direct adverse effect doesn’t mean there is no impact on energy level. This is a personal comment. It depends on the way the body neutralizes an excess oral supplement.
Mind excess alpha-tocopherols too (vitamin E) because it may interfere with synthesis of K2. (6- 7) Also if you take phytonutrients as AINS (curcumine or aspirin) because it affects cytochrome P450 (detox pathway). You need a recovery period between 2 cures.- https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7305589_Menadione_is_a_metabolite_of_oral_vitamin_K
- http://www.jbc.org/content/281/52/40485.full.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3005834/
Oxidative Stress-Induced Apoptosis by Menadione at high concentration. - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20937380 +
- http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1521661601951290
- http://jcs.biologists.org/content/106/1/309
- http://health.oregonstate.edu/biblio/vitamin-e-decreases-extra-hepatic-menaquinone-4-concentrations-rats-fed-menadione-or
- http://www.pubpdf.com/pub/22707266/Vitamin-E-decreases-extra-hepatic-menaquinone-4-concentrations-in-rats-fed-menadione-or-phylloquinon
α-Toco may interfere with the side chain removal of phylloquinone (PK) to form menadione (MN) as an intermediate for synthesis of tissue-specific menaquinone-4 (MK-4).
Paymanz said:
“you didnt meant to say alpha tocopherol inhibit its conversion ,right?”
LucH answers:
=> Tocopherols neutralize oxidant molecules. If excess menaquinone leaves quinones, if menadione generates ROS, yes, alpha tocopherols would serve as firemen. Thus tocopherols could inhibit K2 when taken at the same time. Only a supposition but it’s logical.More info to optimize Ca and phosphorus (between 2.2/1)
Bone metabolism and joints: Dependent on vitamin K2
To absorb Ca (via osteoblasts), the body is dependent on vitamin K2. The synthesis of osteocalcin depends on vitamin K2. If we schematize: osteocalcin allows the body to use calcium for bone metabolism. In the absence of vitamin K, osteocalcin cannot function. Vitamin K2 is necessary to carboxylate/activate K2-dependent proteins so that they perform their functions. For example, the matrix Gla protein (MGP protein or osteocalcin), it prevents calcium from being deposited on blood vessels and other soft tissues. The more vitamin K2 you lack, the less MGP will be activated, so calcium will lodge in the arteries, creating stasis and then blockage... NB: the matrix Gla protein is not specific to bone: it is also found in the wall of vessels where it plays a role in inhibiting vascular calcification.See animation on this link (bone remodelling):
http://www.random42.com/bone-biology-osteoblasts-and-osteoclasts-animation
Info on absorption, target and dosage of vitamin K (and links from Chris Masterjohn and Kate Rheaume-blue) (in French, with English links)
https://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t1704-vit-k-mk4-vs-mk7-update-02-2020#21497Momado965 said:
Do you think a dose of 45mg of mk4 spread throughout is toxic?
Luch answered:
Toxic, no.
K1= 45 mcg.
Enough to improve the level of artery calcification and cardiac mortality. It depends on the interaction between A D K vitamins.
K2 type MK4: 45 mg (45.000 mcg).
Recommended to decarboxylate the Osteocalcin level.
K2 type MK7: 240 mcg for diabetics and obese people. Level recommended in the prevention of atherosclerosis, diabetes, osteoporosis, obesity, etc.
From « Dosage optimum » on this link (in French):
http://mirzoune-ciboulette.forumactif.org/t706-vitamine-k2-achat-exemples-de-produits#6433
