Discussion and consolidation of new vitamin B1 Thiamine (Thiamin) knowledge
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To start this off here's some fringe knowledge for the curious and especially for a chronic kidney disease (CKD) relation:
Don't cook your thiamin supplements (who would do that?) or thiamin-rich foods in acidic conditions or it will turn into oxythiamine. Especially not when having impairments in renal clearance.
Didn't we learn that keeping acidic cooking conditions would be great because that drastically avoids the synthesis of huge amounts of Advanced Glycation End products from sugars with fats and proteins? Bummer.
On the bright side, simply providing more supplementary thiamin counteracts the effects of oxythiamine from cooked foods.
On the sad side, foods naturally high in thiamin could actually have negative effects on crucial thiamin-dependent bodily enzymes if they've been cooked in acidic conditions.
And processed/cooked foods which are already borderline low in thiamin could not simply be "thiamin-neutral" but extra negative in their effects on thiamin-dependent enzyme functioning.
It's yet another reason to avoid processed foods but to do home cooking from original ingredients.Although the rate and the necessary conditions for such conversion is not yet known in practical detail, the results of impeded enzyme functions and high levels of circulating oxythiamine however was shown. What they experimentally studied (no in-between values): 0.06% of thiamin converted to oxythiamin in acidic conditions over 1 hour. A 500-fold dose of thiamin freed the transkelotase from inhibitory oxythiamin. "Standard Dietary Recommendations" for thiamin seem grossly insufficient in CKD in light of theses findings and about 30mg thiamin daily are fine.
For the future, it would be good to know what the oxythiamine/thiamin ratios of such causative foods really are, i.e. how little dietary oxythiamin counteracts what amount of dietary thiamin!
And what usual renal clearance and serum levels can be expected for oxythiamine in people with healthy kidneys - is it an accumulation specific to chronic kidney diseases (who, along with diabetics, additionally show impaired thiamin transporters) or could it also occur in various other populations (e.g. in those who get served a lot of canned fruit: caring homes, hospitals)?Also, poultry could be a general source for an anti-thiamin by itself if they've been fed with amprolium in their standard chick feed mixes against intestinal protozoa. But if that amprolium accumulates in chicken meat to an extent that is harmful to humans, imagine the corresponding metabolic quality of life (and quality of meat!) of those chickens. Analytics by the food industry would be great to find out about that.
@mostlylurking said in Ideas for getting more CO2 into your everyday routine:
@CrumblingCookie
You might find the article at this link of interest: https://portlandpress.com/bioscirep/article/38/1/BSR20171148/57181/Thiamine-and-selected-thiamine-antivitaminsMy question is this: are these thiamine anti-vitamins created naturally in the body? Or are these strictly lab creations made for experimentation or for pharmaceutical purposes and do not occur in nature so can be patented?
@mostlylurking
They write about purely synthetic thiamin derivates which are being used in lab testing (to create functional thiamin deficiency) and for some medical uses.
However, there's one derivative which stands out:"recent research of Zhang et al. [132] indicates that we can be exposed to trace amounts of thiamine antimetabolites like oxythiamine as a result of thiamine transformation through cooking under acidic con ditions at 100◦C. That kind of contamination may cause undesirable effects on our metabolism (e.g. transketolase inhibition in dialyzed patients with end-stage renal disease). Poultry fed with amprolium as a means of preventing coccidiosis as well as post-production impurities from poultry farms may be also potential sources of thiamine an timetabolites contamination. From this point of view, there is a need for intensive development of new methods for the measurements of thiamine antimetabolites in food, feedstocks, and environment in order to constant monitoring of the level of contamination and prediction of the possible effects of thiamine antimetabolits pollution for people health"
Zang et al. [132] is to be found here:
https://www.kidney-international.org/article/S0085-2538(16)30057-6/fulltext"Decreased transketolase activity is an unexplained characteristic of patients with end-stage renal disease and is linked to impaired metabolic and immune function. Here we describe the discovery of a link to impaired functional activity of thiamine pyrophosphate cofactor through the presence, accumulation, and pyrophosphorylation of the thiamine antimetabolite oxythiamine in renal failure. Plasma oxythiamine was significantly increased by 4-fold in patients receiving continuous ambulatory peritoneal dialysis and 15-fold in patients receiving hemodialysis immediately before the dialysis session"
"Oxythiamine is likely of dietary origin through cooking of acidic thiamine-containing foods. Experimentally, trace levels of oxythiamine were not formed from thiamine degradation under physiologic conditions but rather under acidic conditions at 100°C. Thus, monitoring of the plasma oxythiamine concentration in renal failure and implementation of high-dose thiamine supplements to counter it may help improve the clinical outcome of patients with renal failure."
"A possible source of oxythiamine found clinically is formation by high-temperature processing of thiamine-containing foods under acidic conditions, similar to but not as severe as conditions of oxythiamine synthesis.15,17 To model this, we incubated 1 μM thiamine in water, pH 7.0, at 37°C and 100°C, and in 100 mM acetic acid, pH 2.9, at 37°C and 100°C for 1 hour. Oxythiamine was detected only in thiamine solution heated at 100°C and pH 2.9. The concentration of oxythiamine formed was 0.56 ± 0.06 nM or 0.06% of thiamine. Similar conversion of dietary thiamine in cooking or commercial food processing with limited clearance over 2 to 3 days could explain the accumulation of oxythiamine to low nanomolar levels in ESRD patients."
"Examples of thiamine-containing foodstuffs with natural low pH are fruits and fruit juices; canned fruits are heated during commercial processing. Foods may also be made acidic by vinegar, lemon juice, and other acidic culinary additives.19 The use of vinegar in cooking has been proposed as beneficial in the diet of ESRD patients to decrease the potassium and magnesium content of vegetables22 and to decrease the formation of advanced glycation end products in foods.23 This requires reappraisal in light of the current studies."
"Given the requirement for acidic, high-temperature processing for oxythiamine formation, high-dose thiamine administered as a pharmaceutical at ambient temperature does not lead to oxythiamine formation. Supporting evidence for this is experimental and from clinical studies of renal failure with high-dose thiamine or related derivatives where transketolase activity was increased."
"The recommendation for patients with stages 3 to 5 CKD to take a supplement of the daily reference intake of 1.1 to 1.3 mg thiamine may be insufficient given the increased concentration of OTPP in renal failure. The remedy to the antimetabolite effects of oxythiamine accumulation is pharmaceutical doses of thiamine to produce increased TPP for OTPP displacement from transketolase. Thiamine (30–45 mg/day equivalent) in HD patients was studied and found to alleviate transketolase deficiency."
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Wondering if it's better to take thiamine in enteric capsules so that it doesn't get exposed to stomach acid.
Wondering if it's another reason to use traditional vinegar-based marinade in preparing meats for grilling or baking or deep frying or air frying instead of using spice rubs (the other reason being vinegar kills pathogens and parasites in the meat).
Wondering if we should avoid eating too much "chicken factory" chicken in our eating lifestyle, as there is a tendency towards chicken chicken chicken because it is cheap, tender, easy to cook, and everywhere. Diversifying our animal-based protein sources towards more fish and beef and sheep and goat and rabbit would help.
Also, for that matter, wondering if it will help us greatly to strive for acid base balance in our own body as this is not a difficult thing to achieve and the only reason people don't care to do it is because everyone else doesn't. Will the thiamine we take in become bad for us when we are consciously allowing our body to be very acidic? And won't this disposition towards highly acidic ecf contribute to more pathology with thiamine megadosing?
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@CrumblingCookie Thanks!
I wondered why Dr Costantini warned against taking oral thiamine hcl doses with "sour" liquids; now I know. Water only, never juices. Costantini also advised taking thiamine at least 30 minutes away from eating food. Perhaps this is because eating food would trigger the release of stomach acid? Makes sense to me.
The recommended dose amounts in the literature you cited seems very low to me (30-45mgs/day), probably because I've been reading about thiamine supplementation and cancer. Low doses are said to be pro-cancer.
The effect of thiamine supplementation on tumour proliferation. A metabolic control analysis study
"Thiamine supplementation in doses between 12.5 and 250 times the recommended dietary allowance (RDA) for mice were administered starting on day four of tumour inoculation. We observed a high stimulatory effect on tumour growth of 164% compared to controls at a thiamine dose of 25 times the RDA. This growth stimulatory effect was predicted on the basis of correction of the pre-existing level of thiamine deficiency (42%), as assayed by the cofactor/enzyme ratio. Interestingly, at very high overdoses of thiamine, approximately 2500 times the RDA, thiamine supplementation had the opposite effect and caused 10% inhibition of tumour growth. This effect was heightened, resulting in a 36% decrease, when thiamine supplementation was administered from the 7th day prior to tumour inoculation. Our results show that thiamine supplementation sufficient to correct existing thiamine deficiency stimulates tumour proliferation as predicted by MCA. The tumour inhibitory effect at high doses of thiamine is unexplained and merits further study. "Linking vitamin B1 with cancer cell metabolism
"In 2001, Comin-Anduix et al. evaluated the effect of increasing thiamine supplementation in multiples of the RDI on an Ehrlich ascites tumor-mouse model [58]. Their findings indicated a statistically significant stimulatory effect of thiamine supplementation on tumor growth compared to non-supplemented controls. Moderate doses of 12.5 to 37.5 times the RDI had the greatest stimulatory effect, peaking at approximately 250% greater tumor cell proliferation with 25 times the RDI. Interestingly, at values above 75 times the RDI, no change was found in tumor cell proliferation, and a slight decrease was found at 2,500 times the RDI. This observation suggests that there is a specific range in which thiamine supports proliferation. "RDI for adults: "The RDI of thiamine for adults 18 and older is 1.2 mg/d for men and 1.1 mg/d for women. "
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@CrumblingCookie So would the pasteurization of juice create oxythiamine?
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@CrumblingCookie I found an article that you might find of interest:
https://hormonesmatter.com/can-we-synthesize-oxythiamine-and-pyrithiamine-endogenously/ -
Thank you everyone for the initiated discourse so far.
@Sugarnotsnow said:
So would the pasteurization of juice create oxythiamine?
The same question occured to me as well!
I don't know the answer. So far all I know on this is what is written in the papers above.@mostlylurking said:
I wondered why Dr Costantini warned against taking oral thiamine hcl doses with "sour" liquids; now I know. Water only, never juices. Costantini also advised taking thiamine at least 30 minutes away from eating food. Perhaps this is because eating food would trigger the release of stomach acid? Makes sense to me.
The thiamin only converts to oxythiamine in sour and hot conditions. In their experiments above, sour conditions at 37°C didn't create oxythiamine.
Wrt to these recommendations I assume Costantini is wary of the substantial acidity of large amounts of thiamin-hydrochloride itself. Larges doses of thiamin-HCl with sour juices or on an empty stomach would be harsher, especially to sensitive people. It's also not a nice taste to burp up the sour taste of thiamin.@yerrag
If I read your thoughts correctly, your worries about thiamin turning to oxythiamine in acidic body conditions are the same as mostlylurking's. So far that seems unlikely to happen at body temperature - at least by the chemical processes identified. And importantly, it was observed that more thiamin did overcome the impairments.
But a sole dietary origin of oxythiamin is still a hypothesis.
Maybe there's more to it. As mostlylurking is hinting at. It's all still speculative with not much data.If indeed certain microbes (in the human guts) were able to produce oxythiamine, there could be contradicting good and bad systemic effects at the same time. The research above only measured the rise of thiamin-dependent enzyme acitivities in blood or serum: It's possible that (in bacteriologically predisposed people) the guts would get thrashed and confound expectations of a systemic net benefit.
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@CrumblingCookie Personally i feel so much better drinking fresh squeezed juice than store bought pasteurized. Oxythiamine isnt the only problem with store bought juice ofc. Other nutrients are damaged under heat, they sometimes have flavor packs and other BS added. Also, not to mention they sit on shelves in plastic containers.
