Pro Metabolic Substances Tier List

Kvirion

@alfredoolivas Interesting list - thanks, but with all the respect, it's not (holistic) Peating, it's just biohacking at best...

"The only supplements that are very safe to take orally are aspirin, cascara, some kinds of thyroid, small amounts of penicillin (30 mg), cyproheptadine (one-half to one milligram), and progesterone." ~Ray Peat, PhD

alfredoolivas

@metabolicmilk 100-120mcgs of T3, split into 16 mcg doses every hour and a half. My favourite is Tironene - I do really well on it, it's cheap and IdeaLabs ships the same day you order, they have DHL express delivery, meaning it can get delivered to Europe in less than 2 days, and it passes customs every time, very very quickly. A zero-stress expereience with IdeaLabs and their product, I love it.

alfredoolivas

@Kvirion Absolutely, not for everyone.

Metabolist

@alfredoolivas Testosterone is for favorable nutrient partitioning and lean mass preservation as you said. T3 absolutely will ramp up fat loss, beyond just the maintenance of the normal metabolic rate in a deficit, as long as you don't out eat the metabolic boost. I've seen it work first hand in others. Done right, it's a gradual thing but so is any lasting weight loss. Muscle loss isn't really a concern with proper diet and training so long as you aren't seriously overdosing.

If you took 300mcg for a few days without your heart beating out of your chest and without severe jitters then you either have really weak product or some sort of thyroid hormone resistance. 300mcg is reckless and advise anyone reading this not to try it.

And for the record, there were multiple reports on the old RPF that tironene is unstable or outright bunk. Since you're taking it you could have some blood work drawn to verify if you're curious. At 100mcg a day your total T3 level should be more than double the top of the range.

Anyway, good luck with your weight loss goals and your biohacking experiments.

alfredoolivas

@Metabolist said in Pro Metabolic Substances Tier List:

. T3 absolutely will ramp up fat loss, beyond just the maintenance of the normal metabolic rate in a deficit, as long as you don't out eat the metabolic boost. I've seen it work first hand in others. Done right, it's a gradual thing but so is any lasting weight loss. Muscle loss isn't really a concern with proper diet and training so long as you aren't seriously overdosing.

Obviously, but it won't help with controlling appetite which is what I struggle with. And it it will help, but it won't be the main factor that is making you lose weight.

@Metabolist said in Pro Metabolic Substances Tier List:

. Muscle loss isn't really a concern with proper diet and training so long as you aren't seriously overdosing.

So you acknowledge there is nuance, with studies that show a weight loss drug causes muscle loss, but when it comes to Ozempic, that same logic goes out the window.

"Subjects treated with T3, 150 µg/day, showed a rise in oxygen uptake and the catabolism of fat and protein. Approximately 75% of the extra oxygen consumed could be accounted for by catabolism of fat. Yet breakdown of lean body mass produced nearly 80% of the weight loss."
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002916523333264#:~:text=Subjects treated with T3,80%25 of the weight loss.

@Metabolist said in Pro Metabolic Substances Tier List:

.If you took 300mcg for a few days without your heart beating out of your chest and without severe jitters then you either have really weak product or some sort of thyroid hormone resistance. 300mcg is reckless and advise anyone reading this not to try it.

Not in my experience, and clinically this has not been shown.

"On an outpatient basis, 12 grossly obese patients were treated in a double-blind, randomized trial with either 225 µg triiodothyronine or with identically appearing placebo tablets for 1 month followed by a 2nd month of the opposite therapy. During the period on T3, there was an average rise of six beats/min in heart rate and a significant loss of weight. "

"Consistent effects of T(3) or T(4) on weight loss, protein breakdown, metabolic rate, and heart rate could not be established. In euthyroid cardiac patients, T(3) decreased TSH and free T(4) levels, without consistent effects of T(3) or T(4) on heart rate, cardiac output, or systemic vascular resistance. "

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19737920/

"Results: No change in sympathetic and metabolic BAT activity, energy expenditure, or BMI was seen during T3 treatment despite the expected changes in thyroid hormone plasma concentrations."
https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/jpem-2014-0337/html?lang=en&srsltid=AfmBOorTshJkgAshNN78o3j1SrDFuHopj7gSU5W3tzAsEl7EhJDKsjxQ

alfredoolivas

@alfredoolivas "Liraglutide exerted anti-catabolic activity by significantly decreasing the activities of metalloproteinases and aggrecanases"

"Liraglutide treatment decreases the release and gene expression of OA inflammatory and catabolic markers and stimulates anabolic markers gene expression"
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35091584/

"Liraglutide, a glucagon-like peptide-1 receptor agonist, inhibits bone loss in an animal model of osteoporosis with or without diabetes."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38868747/
"Liraglutide increases bone formation and inhibits bone resorption in rats with glucocorticoid-induced osteoporosis"
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30955181/

Metabolist

@alfredoolivas So you lack the willpower and discipline to overcome your hunger during a cut and therefore need to take a novel big pharma drug? Got it.

No matter how much or by what means you boost your metabolism, you're going to lose muscle mass if your metabolic rate exceeds the rate at which your body is able to mobilize stored lipids. Same goes for simple calorie restriction. I don't know if this is the cause of the reported muscle loss on ozempic. It could be something else causing it. All I know is that the people I've seen that have lost weight on ozempic don't look quite right.

You mean your experience with a weak or fake product? Try it again with cynomel if you dare. One study using metabolically-deranged mega fatties does not concretely prove your point. Do you not believe in thyrotoxicosis? What about thyroid storm? Mere superstition from overly cautious endocrinologists, right? I've known people who have experienced thyrotoxicosis and they all found it quite scary. Perhaps you should meet with an endocrinologist yourself if you believe you're truly hypothyroid. That way you could have labs done and ensure you get genuine hormones.

Before singing the praises of semaglutide, don't you think you ought to achieve your goal weight first and maintain it a good while after discontinuing?

samson

@alfredoolivas you are clearly heavily indoctrinated into the scientism of the medical industry, you have a lot of unlearning to do if you want to engage with peats work in any meaningful way. In vivo and the gay science should be mandatory reading for this forum lol

Milk Destroyer

hi learnedhelplessness

alfredoolivas

@Metabolist said in Pro Metabolic Substances Tier List:

@alfredoolivas So you lack the willpower and discipline to overcome your hunger during a cut and therefore need to take a novel big pharma drug? Got it.

Yeah? I am not trying to be stressed during my weight loss and during the time I try to maintain my weight loss?

The result is - I look great - feel great - and have no side effects. All for 45 euros a month. But maybe I should buy heavy metal laden DNP...

@Metabolist said in Pro Metabolic Substances Tier List:

You mean your experience with a weak or fake product? Try it again with cynomel if you dare. One study using metabolically-deranged mega fatties does not concretely

I gave you 2 studies and a meta-analysis, that share my experience?

I respond really well to thyroid, I get very good effects from thyroid such as dopmanigeric effects and improved energy. Hence why it is in S tier.

I am not taking in fake products or a "non responder" to thyroid, I just don't get the increase in heart beat.... which is pretty normal according to the 2 studies and the meta-analysis I showed you.

@Metabolist said in Pro Metabolic Substances Tier List:

Try it again with cynomel if you dare.

I have, and received the same results.... let me guess... the cynomel got damaged on the way to europe?

alfredoolivas

@samson said in Pro Metabolic Substances Tier List:

@alfredoolivas you are clearly heavily indoctrinated into the scientism of the medical industry,

Because I hold a single controversial opinion about a substance, I am indoctrinated?

In vivo and the gay science should be mandatory reading for this forum lol

So people should have to read selectively chosen science, to be a part of this forum, and anyone that goes against the grain a single time is medically indoctrinated?

Instead of continuing our conversation about the interesting selection of studies you gave me, you come out with this authoritarian comment

alfredoolivas

@Metabolist

"Heart rate decreased significantly after T3 infusion (63, 60–66 vs. 69, 60–76 beats per minute"
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article-abstract/93/4/1351/2826632

"Triiodothyronine in patients with advanced heart failure. An intravenous bolus dose of triiodothyronine, with or without a 6- to 12-hour infusion (cumulative dose 0. 1 5 to 2.7 microg/kg...There was no significant change in heart rate or metabolic rate and there was minimal increase in core temperature"
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9485134/

"Cardiac function as measured by LVEF, end-diastolic and end-systolic volumes and cardiac output did not change during T3-treatment and neither did the neurohormonal profile. There were no side-effects in terms of cardiac arrhythmias and no change in resting heart rate."
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/cen.12648

Hando-Jin

@alfredoolivas in my experience if thyroid is not curbing appetite (it should) then it's not working as well as it could. I think estrogen can be one of the great interferers and it's worth experimenting with the various estrogen antagonists or getting the type of tests done that idealabs offer, which might help shed light on things

alfredoolivas

@Hando-Jin thanks for sharing.

Thyroid doesn’t stimulate appetite for me and it might even lower appetite for me, if anything. But not significantly. I already am taking 50mg of exemestane a day, I like it.

Thyroid increases GLP-1, which is why maybe it lowers appetite.

Metabolist

@alfredoolivas Do whatever you want. Stack DNP, clenbuterol, orlistat, cloprostenol, or any other drug that you find positive studies on. Why not even bump your T3 dose up to 1mg a day since you don't believe it's cardiotoxic. Elite bodybuilders very rarely exceed 150mcg but they aren't nearly as advanced as you.

I really don't care what you do or think I just don't want anyone to believe it's OK to dose that high because you, an individual with apparent thyroid hormone resistance, posted the abstracts of a few studies and claimed to have done it without issue. There are a whole litany of side effects: tachycardia and palpitations, along with jitters and nervousness, are the most prominent. Hypertension, angina, muscle weakness, insomnia, diarrhea, sky high SHBG, and sweating are some others. Fortunately I don't think anyone with an intact sense of self-preservation is going to listen to you.

Since you put so much faith in studies, why don't you adopt the keto diet? Plenty of studies show its efficacy in appetite suppression and weight loss.

Wow, you're the Ray Peat subreddit mod? Lmao! Ray Peat would have spat out his coffee if he had heard someone was running a forum under his name promoting all the drugs you do.

One day you're going to look back with regret for putting all this shit in your body. I know you won't listen but my parting words of advice are to consider working with an endocrinologist that's willing to prescribe NDT.

Good luck

Kvirion

Let me be a peacemaker here

Both sides of the dispute in this thread are doing their best to prove their point honestly and diligently. Still, unfortunately, one side's arguments (I'm talking to you @alfredoolivas) are based on a deprecated limited paradigm or simply reductionism (AKA scientism or logical positivism).

However, Ray Peat's research was based on a different broader/deeper, i.e. holistic approach as described for example here https://raypeat2.com/articles/articles/adaptive-substance.shtml
Modern medicine is also starting to understand this fact/difference in its ways as described here https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3498395/

The current discourse on clinical medicine is dominated by a mechanistic, deterministic, and reductionist world view and has much to gain by embracing the concepts in complexity science (CS).

BTW holism = complexity (CS)

So guys, please first embrace the differences between your paradigms, then fight...

alfredoolivas

@Metabolist Yes I have moderated the subreddit for a year have and never seen someone so Authoritarian as you.

You: "Don't do semaglutide, even though you clearly stated only experience positive effects without any negatives, do T3 and testosterone!"

Me :"I have tried them, and had lack of results for weight loss (even though I have had clearly put them in S and A tier, as I had amazing results with them otherwise)."

You: "You aren't taking high enough dose or you are taking the wrong brand"

Me: "I have tried 4 different brands and doses up to 300mcg."

You: "Impossible! Your heart rate must be through the roof! Based on this SINGLE indicator (heart rate) I diagnose you THYROID RESISTANT"

Me:"My heart rate (90 - 100bpm), already high with or without thyroid, doesn't rise. Actually this is quite common, here is a meta analysis of 21 studies that showed this is common, even with high doses. Furthermore, here are a handful of individual studies that show this. (I don't state anywhere that it is not possible or common for heart rate to rise with thyroid)”.

You: "You don’t believe that the thyroid increases heart rate? You don’t believe in thyroiditis or any other side effects of thyroid issues? You don’t believe that tachycardia, palpitations, jitters, and nervousness are among the most prominent effects? Other symptoms include hypertension, angina, muscle weakness, insomnia, diarrhea, extremely high SHBG, and sweating.

You are still thyroid resistant, despite you telling me that thyroid works really well for you! Try Cynomel! Get NDT from an endocronoligist"

I have barely said your opinion is invalid, and have simply shared my own experience, opinion and evidence.

What do you do ? Start diagnosing me with conditions, accuse me of believing something that I never stated and have given me advice that I have already tried - but I am always doing something wrong, I am the issue, you give me more advice.

alfredoolivas

@Kvirion
We are talking about heart rates in response to thyroid medication… it doesn’t matter who’s holistic and who “believes in scientism”, we are taking about an extremely basic quantitative measurement, that anyone can test, and see how it changes to a medication. I never denied his opinion - I only said that my experience is common.

It’s actually quite funny: I make dozens of posts, about studies, proving and explaining the pro-metabolic theory of health, and I probably have shared close to 100 more studies in Reddit comment sections, and in DMs. These studies are rodent, cell and human studies.

And there are lots of other valuable researchers that share these studies too, and do the exact same thing. No one has EVER called me or these other researchers, followers of scientism.

But as soon as I speak positively about my response to semaglutide and say my heart rate doesn’t change on thyroid, whilst showing studies supporting this idea that this doesn’t happen to everyone, I get called a member of scientism.

There were 7 medications on this list, that I recommended SOLEY based off of personal experience. 7. None are patented. I clearly said the others had drawbacks that I had experienced, and I don’t recommend them.

Pure scientism huh?

Metabolist

@alfredoolivas Touched a nerve? You can do as you please with your body. I didn't diagnose you, I only said it appears you have thyroid hormone resistance if you think you need 300mcgs. It's not healthy and would put your blood levels of T3 far far beyond the upper end of normal.

I wrote what I did in the spirit of harm reduction. I think extreme doses of thyroid is ill-advised and potentially life threatening and I'm certain everyone here would agree that Dr. Peat would have opposed the idea.

I recommended an endo that's cool with NDT because the ones that aren't are usually only test tsh and prescribe synthroid. They might even prescribe ozempic so you wouldn't have to inject some sus product from China. I also think it's wise to consult with someone who has experience in the field and who can run blood tests and provide feedback if you're going to monkey around with hormones.

Again, best of luck

Kvirion

@alfredoolivas said in Pro Metabolic Substances Tier List:

There were 7 medications on this list, that I recommended SOLEY based off of personal experience. 7. None are patented. I clearly said the others had drawbacks that I had experienced, and I don’t recommend them.

If you don't have an in-depth systemic understanding of how those products work, your recommendation can be harmful to others.

Pure scientism huh?

I'm just asking you to look deeper/different and question your assumptions.

And with all the respect, you @alfredoolivas still seem to focus on a single or a few variables instead of looking at the whole equation/calculus.

So my suggestion is: to look at how to facilitate the organism's phase-shift to a new better dynamic homeostatic state, than wrongly seeing single "receptors" as linear levers.

Your view on semaglutide is missing the secondary/tertiary effects of what it is doing and what it is not doing.
(in for example comparison to thyroid hormones)

BTW you may want to better look from the perspectives like those:

Ray Peat’s approach distilled to the key core: “energy and structure are interdependent at every level”;

Health issues are not meant to be addressed directly. You heal by simply out-nourishing the issue. Until it feels like all aspects of your life are improving in unison, you are not adequately nourished. It should feel like nothing can break your stride. The bioenergetic symphony. ~@natelawrence_

Martin Picard: Pharma is about suppressing. Healing needs nourishing and stimulating the right processes. We need a new Healing Science to understand how and when to stimulate endogenous forces that will sustainably promote healing in each person…