Log: Extremely Low Cholesterol, Low Copper, Ceruloplasmin, High DHEA-S - Chronic Fatigue For Years
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@Sigma
I remember your account, not sure about the cholesterol part (curious what could have helped elevate it again, or what could have stopped lowering it?)
but for the copper partyou showed low ceruloplasmin, ceruloplasmin gets created in the liver in response to copper in the tissue. so its 1 way to tell if copper overloaded for some reason (in a probably uncommon situation) or not, because if copper is high in liver generally ceruloplasmin shouldn't be low (some exceptions like wilsons where they cant put the copper into the protein so it degrades, But you also didn't have elevated liver enzymes at the same time so didn't show damage which should be there if there's an overload problem doing significant damage - doesnt give me a reason to think overload)
ray peat wrote in his book copper is vulnerable as we age and tends to be lower with iron ratio going up. and the lower copper causing some aging outcomes. damaging in high amounts or to vulnerable gut but cells / mitochondria cant function properly without enough, cytochrome c needs it
and u have high zinc-copper ratio.
and lung / breathing problems without iron deficiency also points to low copper.
and both copper measures showing low.
from what i can see it points to low in both blood & tissue. If i was in your situation i would stop all extra zinc if u haven't yetIf your vitamin A is too low atp7b / ceruloplasmin gets impaired. when you take cells similar to wilson's and add vitamin A it helps raise ceruloplasmin again.
Do you get much vitamin A in diet? avoiding either / not getting enough can lead to problems
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9616579/#sec2
Vitamin A also key in testosterone production so fits twice
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6216111/
And far as DHEA with low test, (wasnt in 2022 functionally by DHT level)
With vitamin A too low HSD3b goes down. hsd3b = dhea -> androstenedione.& you had low end vit A before, but not deficiency.
At that time 2022 your DHT levels were up in that range. Test wasnt the best but not crashed in the range like now and DHT is more potent. Cholesterol low, copper low.
So that doesn't fit with copper, unless you were avoiding copper or on low copper diet at that time with the vit A unable to help increase ceruloplasmin that needs enough copper to be bound.
Your test is low now with cholesterol higher (less conversion maybe).
Both times your cholesterol was in the 80s your androgens weren't low (higher conversion maybe).
I'm thinking maybe the difference is vit A going into sufficiency at least 1 of the times, maybe both but not measured. If you were restricting / on low copper before
How much copper & vit a do you get?
If low increasing vit A might be worth a try to see if fixes some things if get enough copper in diet simultaneously (nothing wild) , (and arent taking supplements to deplete e.g 100s of milligrams of flavanoids with copper vulnerable to depletion by them). (and without the extra zinc). i wouldnt get from carotene sources just in case conversion issue. -
So from age 13-18 you were not in a nourished state but a stressed one?
That age range is paramount for development
Stay the course
If you’re overtraining or doing anything else that keeps you in a stressed metabolic state-
You need to stop“A stressed organism cannot heal”- paraphrasing
Looks like you are drinking too much liquid imo as well
Hard on digestion imeI will add I only skimmed your post
But you get my big idea hopefullyAddendum: oh dear. I just read more of your post. Yeah. You need to really step back and look at basics. Much to say but not enough time here….
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@cs3000 Thanks for replying bro. I also studied your posts on the old forum. You were doing pretty good with pregnenolone, no?
Yeah. What you are saying seems right.
Vitamin A seems to be a key player for me. Whenever I researched ceruloplasmin, vitamin A obviously popped up.
I actually had one of my craziest experiences a few years ago after supplementing 10k vit A. I had throw up a bunch of bile about half an hour after taking it and then afterwards I was feeling the most low cortisol, androgenic state I have had in a long time.
A few weeks ago I also supped vit A a few times. It seemed to have some anti stress effects but just after the whole anti vit A propaganda, I got some worries about supplementing with it.
@cs3000 said in Log: Extremely Low Cholesterol, Low Copper, Ceruloplasmin, High DHEA-S - Chronic Fatigue For Years:
Do you get much vitamin A in diet? avoiding either / not getting enough can lead to problems
I am definitely not avoiding it. I never really went low A like the lowtoxin guys and these days my diet has sufficient. Same for copper. The only thing is I am also using a lot of vit A antagonists maybe. Like all the zinc uses up vit A etc.
I actually seem to have a weird problem where I have too much bile production, or my liver is too lean. That's how it feels like at least. I will drink a coffee and have the craziest bile and feeling too much on edge. Could be the opposite of the lowtoxin / low A guys who all struggle with high cholesterol, high vit A etc.
@cs3000 said in Log: Extremely Low Cholesterol, Low Copper, Ceruloplasmin, High DHEA-S - Chronic Fatigue For Years:
And far as DHEA with low test, (wasnt in 2022 functionally by DHT level)
With vitamin A too low HSD3b goes down. hsd3b = dhea -> androstenedione.This is very interesting. Could be like you say that the low A makes the DHEA-S pool and not convert into androgens.
Also are you saying its impossible to have low testosterone functionally with my DHT level at that time? I wonder what it is now.
I've been thinking and researching a lot and thinking again about trialing pregnenolone and even progesterone. I've been uploading all my data and experiences to ChatGPT and he also said prog could be especially helpful in healing my brain and correcting neurosteroids/GABA sensitivity.
The reason I am thinking about prog is because of women with PCOS who have a messed up hormonal profile with high DHEA-S seem to have an issue with high estrogen and benefit from prog to calm the adrenals and flush out the estrogen. Classic Ray Peat fashion.
I was thinking maybe this could also help flushing estrogen out of tissues for me and then potentially improving ceruloplasmin and copper. Since ceruloplasmin also is estrogen dependent to an extent.
But I am worried about suppressing androgens even further.
Do you think it is at all possible that this is some kind of vit A toxicity. When I was young like I said in my post I used to eat 4-8 eggs a day, lots and lots of milk and dairy, lots of meat. And still I was feeling extremely low androgens back then, and felt like I was overloading my liver. That's the only thing that makes me worried about vit A.
Also ... if you want to see more labs and some more experiences, there is a lot more going on on the OG forum. Just got diagnosed with some weird sleep apnea.
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silicon raises ceruloplasmin and lessens negative effect of copper deficiency in rats
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/095528639090086Z
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@eduardo-crispino Thats actually something that I wanted to try for a while. Read about silica and copper for a while. Didn't know it also actually raised cerulo.
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@Sigma well here is a list of silicon rich foods:
- clausthaler original / classic beer (not the IPA) 330ml 0.5%abv 11mg silicon with highest bioavailability of any studied foods, matches the MMST supplement form and much higher bioavailability than even the BioSil supplements . this beer is also municipally added fluoride free and only uses hop extract and not a significant amount of hops in the brewing, so possibly not very estrogenic and I have read on rpf from a user that maybe beer is more progestognenic than estrogenic. most if not all beers will have silicon but this is the only confirmed beer ive seen showing silicon content amount
-green / French beans , second highest bioavailability tested. these are the types of beans you'd probably cook not eat raw. not talking about snap peas etc
-cucumber with skin on, the wartier and knottier the skin the better
-oatmeal, especially oat bran
-various whole grains and rices
-more incidental stuff like pineapple
-bananas have some decent amounts but apparently barely bioavailable
"bioavailability" in the study I've seen is measured by determining silicon content of the food then measuring how much comes out in urine. if a lot comes out in urine they call it "high bioavailability" because that means more is making it to the blood and not just passing through the digestive system unabsorbed and coming out as poop. just logically this method of determination might not be correct because maybe foods that are apparently low bioavailbility measurement via this method have silicon that is being uptaken to cells better so less is coming out in urine.
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@cs3000 Can you elaborate on these studies bro?
I still kinda feel like the copper might be stuck in tissues.
I took 2mg today and I feel much more triggered, irritable.
I also have been taking progesterone here and there over the last week and I am not sure about it but in a way seems like it could be beneficial.
I asked chatgpt and progesterone can't convert into dhea or cortisol so it seems much safer than preg which actually can convert into dhea and this seems like exactly what happens when I take it. I get more stressed. On the prog, it doesnt seem to happen but again I am still unsure if I like the overall effect.
Also, vitamin A. On paper it should make sense. Raise ceruloplasmin, raise cholesterol and steroid hormones? Is there any form you recommend?
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@Sigma you said somewhere you have issues with your trachea collapsing or something right causing interrupted sleep ,
those studies show copper plays a key role in elastins structure enables it to create proper elasticity, But it needs ceruloplasmin to do thatwith dysfunctional elastin breathing problems can happen (usually the lung e.g chronic shortness of breath)
but trachea is also elastic tissue needs proper elastin function for keeping its structure, lysyl oxidase to cross link elastin well (so your problem there maybe fits with your low ceruloplasmin)
but if your baseline vitamin A and copper intake has been good for a while changing diet there might be irrelevant idk. some people dont convert carotene to vit A well though
In conclusion, elastic system fibers are one of the extracellular matrix´s components concerning the trachea.
These fibers seem to give the trachea the capacity to increase in length and diameter, and also are essential to its elastic recoilmaybe best not to take supplements unless theres an absorption issue needing high amounts, its easy to overdo them and can cause problems,
that making u irritable is probably more dopamine -> noradrenaline conversion, too much at once.
and u might absorb even more than usual because of being low in it, plus you get it all hitting at once that way instead of extracting with food combined with other nutrients
and taking copper alone without getting some foundational vitamin a for ceruloplasmin might not be great idea idk the minimum needed, probably not much.so maybe better sticking to food for testing if you notice a benefit or not
can get both from a small amount of measured raw weight 8g beef liver (~1mg copper + a few thousand IU vit A which is a mix of retinyl and retinol)
can add a little chocolate if needed. i dont think theres need to go over 2000iu - 5000iu vit A for general intake, 10,000iu+ can cause problems
https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/403AC96660C617812248DBBB9E90E538/S0007114596000979a.pdf/interactions_in_indices_of_vitamin_a_zinc_and_copper_status_when_these_nutrients_are_fed_to_rats_at_adequate_and_increased_levels.pdf
shows vitamin A gives dose dependant increase of ceruloplasmin. but you dont need those extremes to raise it
5000iu might raise it by 5 days , with some baseline copper intake
https://therootcauseprotocol.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Induction-of-Ceruloplasmin-Synthesis-by-Retinoic-Acid-in-Rats-Influence-of-Dietary-Copper-and-Vitamin-A-Status.pdf
i'd avoid zinc supplements,
idk what a good timeframe would be for testing if its effective for the trachea thing or its something else. guessing maybe 3 weeks idk. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6217893/ can add intakes up on cronometer -
Apart from supplements, have you tried including well-tolerated green leafy vegetables, like asparagus or kale? It is often overlooked in the peat-sphere, but can be very helpful. Asparagus for example lowers excess ammonia, which often is a culprit for fatigue.
