How simple are people?
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Percent probability estimate that Animal Consciousness is the subconscious of humans
All things considered:
Area of assessmentAssessment
Neurological structure
~95%
Behavioral parallels
~90%
Similarities in emotion management
~85%
Cognitive analysis
~60%
Philosophical congruence (at the conceptual level)
~70%
Overall probability:
Approximately 85-90% probability that the human unconscious is functionally equivalent to the consciousness of most animals (especially mammals).The consciousness of animals often works in the same way as the unconscious mind of humans: it does not analyse or reflect, but feels, reacts, remembers and acts. Animals can be said to inhabit areas of the psyche that are hidden from us.
General arguments why the unconscious ≈ animal consciousness:
Raw emotions, instincts, motives:
The human unconscious is the part of the psyche that controls basic behaviour.
The animal consciousness is also limited to this - reacting, without deep reflection.
Common areas of the brain:
Limbic system, amygdala, hippocampus - function similarly in all mammals and determine emotions and motivation.
These are subconscious areas in humans and “conscious” centres in animals.
Evolutionary logic:
The human brain evolved from the animal brain. What is unconscious in humans is an inherited layer from animal consciousness.
This is not an absolute fact, but an analytical interpretation based on modern neuroscientific, evolutionary and psychological data. From a philosophical point of view, there may be other interpretations.
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I am still waiting for the evidence that people have a divine spark. I just cant find any...
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Practically, one can calculate the efficiency of persons working mind by giving intellectual tests. i live for years watching the inefficiency of individual people. We highly rely on the traditions/achievements of other people. We basically are monkeys with smart phones in the hand.
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@Kvirion look to evidence: we can hardly manage to raise 2 offsprings nowdays. You call it quantum IQ? Animals raise more offsprings if needed.
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@Peatful could you give practical evidence? maybe something that exceeds animal behavior? or chose yourself. because I am tired of this trauma transfer/mystical superiority about some higher power which makes us humans special or losers depending on context . When somebody feels such a loser that has to invent stories that he has some higher powers then animals. I better agree with Indians, who said animals were just like humans. Divine is often just the power of nature. The power exist, it works, but it does not involve people more then animals.
Chat GPT
Universe: Endless Variation Within Constraints
Like a kaleidoscope reconfigures a finite set of pieces into infinite patterns, the universe rearranges matter and energy within the constraints of physical laws to create endless diversity — stars, planets, life, consciousness.
Illusion vs. Reality
A kaleidoscope produces beautiful illusions from mirror reflections. Likewise, some philosophers and physicists argue that our experience of reality might be a kind of projection or emergent phenomenon — think simulation theory, holographic principle, or even Plato's cave. -
@TayaLeaf said in How simple are people?:
@Kvirion look to evidence: we can hardly manage to raise 2 offsprings nowdays. You call it quantum IQ? Animals raise more offsprings if needed.
LOL! Reread my post. Quantum just means: we are not a linear computer... nothing more.
BTW, most probably the same/similar quantum effects can also be found in animals or even plants/fungi...I am still waiting for the evidence that people have a divine spark. I just cant find any...
Yep, they don't... As below so above...
https://www.noemamag.com/a-radical-new-proposal-for-how-mind-emerges-from-matter/
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@TayaLeaf said in How simple are people?:
I am still waiting for the evidence that people have a divine spark.
It's right under your nose and above your liver actually. Currently as a dim as your wit.
I just cant find any.
Of course not, you can't interpret a painting.
Assistance is on the way. Your probable aversion to it will be a new form of entertainment.
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@TayaLeaf said in How simple are people?:
@Peatful could you give practical evidence? maybe something that exceeds animal behavior? or chose yourself. because I am tired of this trauma transfer/mystical superiority about some higher power which makes us humans special or losers depending on context . When somebody feels such a loser that has to invent stories that he has some higher powers then animals. I better agree with Indians, who said animals were just like humans. Divine is often just the power of nature. The power exist, it works, but it does not involve people more then animals.
Chat GPT
Universe: Endless Variation Within Constraints
Like a kaleidoscope reconfigures a finite set of pieces into infinite patterns, the universe rearranges matter and energy within the constraints of physical laws to create endless diversity — stars, planets, life, consciousness.
Illusion vs. Reality
A kaleidoscope produces beautiful illusions from mirror reflections. Likewise, some philosophers and physicists argue that our experience of reality might be a kind of projection or emergent phenomenon — think simulation theory, holographic principle, or even Plato's cave.You speak for many people…
The answer isn’t an understanding
It’s a knowingI can’t prove anything to you
That’s it’s antithesisIf you really want to know
Earnestly ask God
He will show you -
@ThinPicking it doesnt make me uncomfortable but i believe we as humans have reached and found out the lowest level we can in our universes materials which are the atoms we havnt found one thing which isnt composed out of protons ,electrons and neutrons(not including the stuff which makes up protons electrons and neutrons which we also have discovered).
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@Peatful Disclaimer: I will repeat—this comment is in no way intended to anger you, disrespect you, or cause an argument. I am genuinely trying to have a productive debate. (I didn’t say you reacted in an angered way; I just wanted to clarify my stance.)
Now that we’ve gotten past the disclaimer:
The burden of proof is on you. I cannot search for something I do not believe exists or have never seen any proof of. Neither can you (again, in my opinion—I’ll be happy to be proven wrong) -
@Peatful how can one "ask" god. and if you know how to ask god, how do you bypass the question of which god to ask if there are so many to choose from
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If a provably more advanced alien species descended down from the heavens to conquer Earth and enslave you and your family, would you surrender due to their supposed superiority?
Probably not.
So it doesn't really matter whether or not there is an abstract justification for how "special" people are, if they come from God or not, etc. People, with a healthy metabolism, like being alive and doing things. It is literally the life process.
Why do grandmothers knit sweaters when a jacquard loom machine does it a thousand times faster?
The life process.
It would be anti-life to lie down and die because we can direct a machine to do some limited functions in a faster/cheaper way.
Perhaps ironically, the way in which machines can now generate decent personable English demonstrates that there is no way to make this plain through language alone, i.e., through abstract-logical posts on an internet forum.
You actually have to be a living person to understand it, and draw from the well of that experience.
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@lobotomize-me said in How simple are people?:
@Peatful Disclaimer: I will repeat—this comment is in no way intended to anger you, disrespect you, or cause an argument. I am genuinely trying to have a productive debate. (I didn’t say you reacted in an angered way; I just wanted to clarify my stance.)
Now that we’ve gotten past the disclaimer:
The burden of proof is on you. I cannot search for something I do not believe exists or have never seen any proof of. Neither can you (again, in my opinion—I’ll be happy to be proven wrong)I love this shtt
Never seen as an argument or disrespect
But thank youBeing an asshole “Christian”
That’s when im disgusted
A few on the old forum come to mindIf life is good for you now
And you see no need for God
(God from the Bible btw)
Enjoy!But there will be a day:
A sick child
A bad accident
Painful emptiness….So no sales pitch or evangelizing from me
It really is between you and GodAll my best….
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@Kvirion thanks for the link, it was an interesting read. More things to look into.
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@lobotomize-me said in How simple are people?:
humans have reached and found out the lowest level we can in our universes materials which are the atoms we havnt found one thing which isnt composed out of protons ,electrons and neutrons(not including the stuff which makes up protons electrons and neutrons which we also have discovered)
All of us are conscious, so we can use that for our reasoning.
If everything is built up of individual particles, then, for there to be consciousness, that consciousness would be an attribute of each particle. But if that were true, how could the kind of consciousness we have come about? We have a larger but still unified consciousness than what can be expected of a single particle, and this consciousness appears to be in a way localized in our heads, with sensory experience coming from our body.
If placing the particles near each other combines their consciousness, then there's some kind of interaction happening outside the limits of the particles. In other words, the particles aren't the most fundamental layer of reality. If particles didn't combine consciousness in any way, then our kind of consciousness would not exist in a world only consisting of particles. If particles that touch each other transmit something from their consciousness to the other particle, then, again, there's something else than just those particles, some other moving factor. And what determines the confines of consciousness then? In other words, our consciousness can't be fully supported by a purely atomistic universe.
As of now, the only way I can make sense of consciousness is by imagining something non-material and without discrete parts (it reminds me of water or air, though those are material of course) which could be said to be everywhere and nowhere simultaneously (not literally). The human body then receives and modulates this "signal", which then results in the kind of consciousness we are familiar with.
After writing about consciousness, some more thoughts came up.
What determines the interactions of the particles? How could the particles form anything? What keeps them together? Why don't they just bounce off of each other, or even pass through each other? I'm not really into physics, but iirc, physicists use "fields" or "forces" to explain these. But what are they then? More particles? Then the same apply. Not particles? Then the universe isn't fundamentally based on particles.
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@NoeticJuice "If everything is built up of individual particles, then, for there to be consciousness, that consciousness would be an attribute of each particle."
This is a compositional error. Many macroscopic properties (wetness, elasticity, temperature) emerge from organized interactions of parts even though no part singly bears them. Current neuroscience and complexity theory treat consciousness likewise (as an emergent, system level phenomenon) without assigning it to each constituent particle
"If placing the particles near each other combines their consciousness, then there's some kind of interaction happening outside the limits of the particles."
Standard physical interactions (electromagnetic coupling, chemical bonding, synaptic transmission) already lie outside any single particle yet remain fully within physical law. No extra layer is required other then forces and the relational structure they generate.
"If particles didn't combine consciousness in any way, then our kind of consciousness would not exist in a world only consisting of particles."
this is a False dichotomy: either particles each have consciousness or they “combine” it. A third option (I mentioned this in part one aswell) is that consciousness is an emergent property of certain organized information processing networks
"If particles that touch each other transmit something from their consciousness to the other particle, then, again, there's something else than just those particles, some other moving factor."
No solid scientific support exists for particles transmitting “consciousness.” What they transmit are energy and information via physical forces. The emergence of mental states from neural computation requires only these well documented exchanges
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@lobotomize-me said in How simple are people?:
it doesnt make me uncomfortable but i believe we as humans have reached and found out the lowest level we can in our universes materials which are the atoms we havnt found one thing which isnt composed out of protons ,electrons and neutrons(not including the stuff which makes up protons electrons and neutrons which we also have discovered).
It probably does because you're resting on woo to cope with it. The standard model is incomplete. There is no unified field theory.
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@lobotomize-me said in How simple are people?:
The burden of proof is on you.
I'd take her hint if I were you lb.
I cannot search for something I do not believe exists or have never seen any proof of. Neither can you (again, in my opinion—I’ll be happy to be proven wrong)
While you're busy with sports, others are busy with science.
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@lobotomize-me said in How simple are people?:
how can one "ask" god. and if you know how to ask god, how do you bypass the question of which god to ask if there are so many to choose from
E-motion is a conversation. Lie on it at your peril.
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@lobotomize-me said in How simple are people?:
The emergence of mental states from neural computation requires only these well documented exchanges
lol
